My amazing client, Ric Barrosa
When searching for a job or making a career change, it can sometimes feel so relieving to finally be offered a job, that you think you should take it even if you’re not fully happy or something doesn’t feel right. But today’s guest had the courage to turn down a well-paying job offer to hold out for a role he really wanted.
Ric has spent 20+ years in the supply chain space and had a lot of different roles within the industry before landing his current position. After starting to feel stuck, he decided that it was time to move on and he joins me this week to share how turning down a job offer, holding out, and believing his skills were valuable enabled him to secure a 25K jump in salary in 4 months.
Tune in this week and hear how Ric got to the core of what he really wanted and reached the success he has now. He shares his advice for anybody in the position he was in, what gave him the courage to turn down a job offer, and how he made the shift to show up completely differently and start killing it in interviews.
If you would like some help up-leveling your beliefs or securing your next 6-figure offer, then my 6-Figure Career Curriculum Mastermind was designed for you. It gives you everything you need to secure a 6-figure offer or multiple offers, succeed in the role, and set yourself up for your long-term career plan. Click here now and get signed up – I’ll see you over there!
What You’ll Learn from this Episode:
- The major shifts that had Ric going from bombing interviews to crushing them.
- How Ric was able to truly see the value he brought and convey it powerfully.
- Ric’s advice for anyone in their current search.
- How he was able to turn down an offer early on in order to receive a better one.
- 3 key necessary mindset shifts to achieve what Ric has.
- How he was able to make a 25K jump in salary in 4 months.
- How to go from giving canned answers in interviews to truly interviewing organizations to find the perfect fit!
Listen to the Full Episode:
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Welcome to the Get A 6-Figure Job You Love Podcast. This is Episode 69, Turning Down Offers To Get What You Really Want. This is a client success with Ric. This is an interview you’re not going to want to miss. He shares everything, he’s very insightful, and he has a lot of really cool ways to explain the process that he went through and how he reached the success that he’s at now. So, stay tuned.
Hey there, welcome to the Get a 6-Figure Job You Love Podcast. I’m your host, Natalie Fisher. I’m a certified Career Mindset Coach, who also happens to want to skip all the BS and get to what it really takes to create real results for you and your career. On this podcast, you will create real mindset shifts that will lead to big results and big changes in your career and your income. No fluff here. If you want to get a six-figure job you love and create real concrete results in your industry and make a real impact, you’re in the right place. Are you ready? Let’s go.
All right, welcome, everybody to the podcast. We have a very special guest on today, Ric Barossa and he’s going to share with us the story of our work together and where he was and where he is now. He’s coming from the supply chain industry manufacturing and retail. And Ric, please go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you.
Hi, Natalie and everybody else. I’m really actually ecstatic to be able to talk to you, given the journey that I’ve been on, of which Natalie’s been really important. So, my background, let’s see, probably 20 plus years in the supply chain space. A lot of different industries from retail apparel, information technology into now a manufacturer of retail-packaged goods. I’ve probably filled a lot of different roles within that, most recently in my current role as a senior supply chain manager. Which basically, I controlled roughly an $85-million spend to basically purchase the appropriate inventory from all of our manufacturing locations around the world and bring that into the US market to satisfy a sales plan that’s developed by our sales team and I interface with them. And then all of the, I guess, ancillary activity that goes with all of that from putting purchase orders and managing logistics and so forth, so.
A lot of responsibility.
You make it sound easy. Yeah.
Yeah. It’s definitely, of late, has been more than an eight-hour day pretty easily.
Yeah, yeah, we’ll get into that.
So okay, so the first thing… I’m so excited to talk to you. So, I have so many questions. So, the first thing I wanted to talk about was like if you think you could take a snapshot of your brain before and before where you were at and describe that when we first started talking and when you first started diving into this process.
Into this process. So, if at a certain point, I’m going to preface this a little bit with my mindset to set this up, I think.
Yeah, that’s what we want.
Yeah, I had made a decision, it was time to move on. Okay? So, I have firmly cemented that in my thinking. The-
Where did you feel yourself getting stuck after that decision?
Yeah. It was effectively, are the things and skills that I perceive to have, are these things, even of any value in the marketplace? Because it’s been 10 years since I’ve really tried to look. And with that then, have times passed me by? Have I just cornered myself into an industry or a way of doing things that maybe I can’t demonstrate can be done in other organizations, potentially other industries? Right.
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Yeah. And I’m glad that you said because a lot of people are in the same spot. So, this is one of my questions that I’ll just move up on the list was, how did you make that shift about your value? Because I know we had conversations about that and I know you told me you were not sure about it. And then I was like, “This is what I love doing.” It’s like, “What are you talking about?” So, how did you make that shift? Because it doesn’t matter what I think it’s what you had to make that shift.
I think fundamentally, there’s probably a couple of things, I’d say is first, it’s realizing that it’s my own thought process and my own thinking that’s leading me to that conclusion. And this isn’t and it’s there. And in that regard without, while I approach it, because it’s my own thinking, it’s something very objective. In the grand scheme of things, in the larger market, it’s definitely subjective. It’s probably rooted more in my experiences that I’ve had and that really what’s happening in the real world, I guess.
Yeah, exactly because you’re so in your own bubble…
… in the same place with the same people, doing the same thing.
Yeah, it’s self-absorption. I don’t even know about-
That you’re like, “Is anyone else even going to care about this?” Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. And then and could you elaborate on some of the specifics thoughts you had about it? Was it like, “I’m not sure that anyone else is going to find this valuable?” And then how did you shift to like, “Of course. I know what I’m doing and I can provide value somewhere else as well.”
Yeah. That’s a good question. So, I think in some cases, I made a lot of mistakes in interviews. So, I would say, I started to realize that the questions that they were asking and what they were looking to get out of me started to yield to me that, “No, these are, in fact, things I know how to do.” I wasn’t addressing them correctly, right? When I was in the interviews, when I was wanting interviews left and right. But it was definitely I could see like, “Okay, there’s something there. I’m just not, I’m not hitting it right.” My mindset, there’s something not right with how I’m thinking about what I do. And I’m not conveying it to them in a way that they can understand the value of it.
Yeah, so there was a disconnect between your actual work and capability to how you were saying it.
How I was saying it.
And how you were showing.
Exactly, exactly or trying to see it maybe from their perspective to certain extent, right?
To see how I could try to say it differently or contextualize it, so they get it in their setting.
Yeah. And that took a mindset shift from you. I remember you were saying…
… “I was thinking about the interview all wrong and now, I’m thinking about it a different way. And now, I’m showing up differently.”
This might sound weird, but I get goosebumps when I think about that moment a lot. It was really a paradigm shift. As soon as you unlock it, it’s like just start thinking that way and you start saying things in that way.
Yes, yes, yeah. I love that.
It’s like, yeah. I can’t even-
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That’s what I wish I could explain to people what’s, that’s how it’s possible, right?
It’s like you have it in you already.
Yeah. It’s just, there’s this blocker. Yeah, yeah. And I think you did mention it and correct me if I’m wrong. It was something around like, “I need to get this right. What do they want to hear from me?”
So, yeah, exactly. So, not knowing what they wanted to hear or how they wanted to hear it, I don’t like, and I could remember, I think I might have even talk to you about it during our sessions. I felt like it was a lot of, I call it like, Game Theory, right? Or they’re going to ask a question, I’m going to answer it this way, and then they’re going to come back and then I’m going to answer it. And I have to get it just. You’re like preempting.
It’s planned, yeah. Planned and calculated, yeah.
And just being thoroughly like I’d get in an interview, I’d be lost. It just felt like, “That didn’t go well.”
Yeah. You’re trying to follow this map and then something comes up, and it’s not on the map. And you’re like, “What now?”
Now, what? Yeah.
Yeah, it’s like-
Or I don’t even say to a certain extent, “These answers came across as really rehearsed or forced.” They were like, “It was very canned.” And since that was my go-to when I think like when I catch the gist of their question, I just go right to that canned response, because that’s what I thought they wanted to hear.
Yeah, I think you described it really well. I think that’s what my clients are like, that’s what everyone tells me. They’re like, “I’ve tried to practice this.” And then when they say it, it’s either different or I do say it and it doesn’t, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. So, what about after? So, describe, so that’s how it was before, which is hearing it in your words is really valuable for people. And then for after how you made the shift to showing up totally differently and just killing it in all these interviews.
Yeah, it was, I really approached it as being able to speak to them on my terms, but yet in a context that they would understand of what I can do. I really try to focus in and center around the value of what I have done in the past, what it’s meant to past organizations. And then I tried to, honestly, I would look into the job description a certain amount or what I gathered from maybe talking with an HR Recruiter before talking with the hiring manager and try to understand the verbage that they use. Some of the keys that they use to try to then say, “Okay, I’ve done it here. And this is what it meant. And here’s how I think I can make it work where you’re at, based on what I’ve heard or read.”
Yeah. And it sounds like totally a different mindset. And like, “I’m actually curious about what they need and how I can help them,” versus…
… “I’m going to try and give them the kind responses and hope it works.”
Yeah, I know exactly. And then the other part I’d say is then I’d even be able to ask them, after I say something like that is like, “Does that sound right? I mean, are you looking for that type of result?” And then it turns into this conversation about what they’re trying to do. And now you’re just, now it went
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from this total fear about getting the answer right like before to now, it’s this conversation about supply chain or planning or supply planning or manufacturing.
Yeah, so it seems like-
And I know those things.
Exactly. I was like you feel very comfortable with that. It’s like that’s what you do every day, all day.
You know how to talk about it. Yes, exactly.
I could talk for hours about that and then, yeah, absolutely, I can, probably two or three interviews. I remember we went 45 minutes long or something crazy. And you just got lost, right?
Yeah, just geeking out on what you both want to get done.
Yeah, right, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, totally. And that sounds like so much more of a fun experience. I remember after you do go for an interview, you’d be like, “I did really well. It went really well.”
Yeah, it was fun. It was like an opportunity to find out what their problems were. And it was a real chance, even that I think what it does is it gets both parties operating in a zone of comfort. And you’re just now, you get to find out about the organization and the people and how they run and what they really want and what they’re like. And then you can say to yourself, “Do I want to work for these guys or with you guys?”
Exactly, yeah. And that’s the second part, which I was going to ask you about like identifying that, yeah. And that’s totally just where you went with it, right? You’re like, “And actually, just like okay, so do I want this? I know I can help them or I can try to help them, but do I actually want this?”
And yeah. And the only thing I’d add to that, Natalie and I don’t know, I’m probably jumping ahead of your questions, but-
And destroying your interview here, but-
No, that’s okay. We’re not on a script here.
I think, early on when I first started this whole interview process, before I started working with you and understand what this is really about, I would read that you want you’re interviewing them as much as they’re interviewing you. And I would just read that and I think that’s balderdash because I don’t even know how to ever sway a conversation into that. I just, there’s no way. And just all through this whole process now, it’s been like, “Oh, well, that’s how that happens.” So, I felt like in many ways, I could absolutely judge whether I wanted to work for somebody or not. Right?
Within the context of the interview, right?
Totally, and it’s like you can hear something and then it doesn’t mean anything, and then you learn how to do it.
Yeah, and then-
And then it’s like a new level. Yeah, because I think that’s a very underrated statement. It’s like, “We are interviewing them as much as they’re interviewing us, but we don’t really do it. We don’t really take them seriously.
Correct. We do not. Yeah, yep.
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So, that’s something that you started doing and it really helped. And also, helps them, right? It helps them to see, “Okay, he’s actually really serious. He has these questions he wants to know.” Yeah, so it really, it raises your value as well.
It absolutely does, yeah, yeah.
Awesome. So, the next thing I wanted to talk about was you turned down an offer early on. And I know this is something that a lot of people would just be like, “Oh my God, how could you do that?” Right? It was a good offer, right?
And I wanted to ask you about that. And what gave you the courage to turn that down because you were very clear in the end. We were like, “This is not for me,” and how you went through that in your head?
Yeah. Great question. So, in terms of the timing of that offer when that happened, I think we had just started working together, I think, it was maybe two or three weeks. And I remember telling you like, “Hey, I’m thinking I’m going to get this offer. I found a way to get through that one.” So, there’s a couple of things I had to weigh that really weighed greatly in that decision. The first one was, “Is this offer appealing to me, because it gets me out of the situation that I’m in right now?” And I was really terrified. I was really terrified of that.
I didn’t simply want to move on, because it was time to move on. And I had decided months prior that I needed to do this. I really wanted it to be something that I wanted, right? So, that was I think, primary number one. And then number two, the job wasn’t really what I wanted to do. Believe it or not, it was what I could do and not what I wanted to do and I-
Yeah, yeah. You’re like, “I could do this.” And also, the salary wasn’t really comparable to what you wanted.
Right. Well, that’s where I was going to head next. And because it was something I could do. It checked enough boxes. Well, I could do it. I could probably be successful at it. Is there opportunity for improvement and changes? There are. They weren’t so clear, but they potentially were there. Again, it was probably a little bit of my, I would say, still my lack of being able to interview properly, to interview them properly as part of this process that I did, but wasn’t quite sure, that. And then I think on top of that, then because it was something I have done or didn’t do, the salary was about what I was doing now and did that. And then I stopped and looked at it and then you didn’t tell me not to take it. That’s obviously true, but definitely from the questions you asked, you got the right sort of thinking going and-
Got to the core of what you really wanted.
Yeah, exactly. Got the core, that’s exactly. It. That’s exactly right, yeah. It made sense that it was something I didn’t want to do.
Yeah. And I just like to check with people like, “Are we making the right decision here? Is just the right decision for you?” Because yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And it took a lot of courage to do that, too, I think because you applied, you got this offer, and I know you were really excited about the fact that you got the offer.
And that it was a six-figure offer and you’ve not gotten that before. And it was, and then it’s like, “Well, you know what? I’m actually going to turn this down.” And that probably felt really good.
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Yeah, it did, but I know and one of the things that also learned, that I used it for and I think you helped me with a lot to make me feel comfortable with it is to counter the offer and really, really kind of because the pay wasn’t there. And I was like, “Well, right. I decided that definitely at the level that they got me at, it was below what I was making now. And I got them to match at least what I was doing now in that role through the counteroffer process about how to go through it. That really helped that I liked the fact that I got to do that and I felt like I had some control in this whole process to arrive at that. So that was, it was good for that, but it was still the wrong thing to go do figure that out, yeah.
Exactly, yeah. And I like to call those things like confidence builders.
You get to see the reaffirming that, “My skills are valuable and I am needed, but this is just not the right one for me.”
It’s, yeah, definitely a validation of all those things. Yep, absolutely.
Yeah. And the point I wanted to make was it just it takes a lot of belief in yourself to be like, “This is not the right one, but I am going to get the right one.” And then of course that happened. Yeah.
Yes, it did.
Yeah. And as far as salary, are you comfortable telling us what you were making and what you’re making now?
In the current, in the role that I’m in now, it was like 132 grand, $132,000 a year [crosstalk 00:16:25].
After being there for 10 years like working your way up?
Yeah, exactly. Right. Working my way up to that. And the offer that I had turned down was at 135, I believe, so basically the same, same sort of [crosstalk 00:16:35] space as bonus and stuff, so not very much different. And did you ask me what I was going to do now or where I’m at?
Yeah. I was going to ask you later, but let’s go into it now. We might as well, yeah.
So now, I just accepted an offer. I’ll be making 160K.
Yeah, so that’s a huge jump and that’s the point. The point I wanted to make is you hold out for that and you’re like, “I believe.” It was the belief that you had that your skills were worth it, your valuable was worth it, and all the things that you did to prove that. And that’s what I wanted to show as an example to people is like you don’t have to take the first thing that comes along, it’s really in your belief to keep going. And it’s not, it didn’t even take you that long. So yeah, so I wanted to ask you about the differences between your old company and how you decided where you wanted to choose to go next?
That’s a good question. So, after turning that one down and really, through some of the coaching that you did, I really got really focused around what I wanted, what I really wanted. Got to the core of what that is. It started to, I guess, focus me in on the roles that I was after and in the industries that I wanted to be in. So, just at a high level, I really decided, industries that had a way to give back to society in some regard, not that I am not having been in those in the past or where I’m currently now. It’s just a less, it’s probably more of an indirect contribution back to society. I wanted something more direct.
And then I really decided that from a leadership perspective, it was definitely owning or harnessing, if you will, decision makers, if you will. If not being a decision maker, harnessing the collective view and consensus making to go drive decisions of what to do next, so. And that’s on a planning context, I guess. Now, one thing that was important when I did that and this might have been one of those self-guided misbeliefs that I had as I went into this process was, “Well, I need to be a director.” Right?
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And with that, to get to the salary I want to get to, I need to manage people, because there’s just no one’s going to pay me when I think I’m going to pay to go do that. And as I sat in on it, one of the things I think that was important to me was if I was going to make sort of an industry shift, and I had to learn a whole lot of new product, process and all of that as long as the leadership opportunities are there or maybe the managing of people isn’t, so it wasn’t such a good idea anymore. So, I kept my options open in that regard. Not that I didn’t want to or couldn’t, it was sort of this other option, I thought, “Well, maybe it’s possible,” right? And maybe I even value that in some regards depending on what the shift is going to be, right?
Yeah. And also the fact that there is that opportunity later on when switching into a completely new industry.
Yeah, maybe I want to hit the pause button around all of the added challenges that managing people brings. But yeah, challenging, yet still rewarding, but yeah, yeah, it’s just different.
Yeah, yeah. And so just, getting clear on what you wanted and ultimately, being able to be happy and proud of what you accepted, right?
So, and there’s no right or wrong to that?
No. Right. And yeah, yeah, exactly right. And I think that sort of helped me guide about what to go pursue and where I would then apply to with a bit more focus where before it was definitely, see a job description on LinkedIn or wherever. I can do that, so I’ll send them a resume and apply, right?
I can do that over and over and over and over again. I did get more directed.
And then what happens as you start getting the interviews for those things and then you’re like…
… “Oh, I’m going to get, just get into another situation where I’ll have to turn on these offers.”
That’s, yeah, that, I was in one of those shortly after the one I turned down. I went really far in the whole process and I’m looking at it, going, “Oh, God, this is a lot like the other one I turned down. I’m in this.”
That’s like burning, why am I burning the limited time I have to job search, right? And doing these things. So, I really did get a bit more focused. And with that, I think I just applied more meaningful things with a bit more sort of concerted effort, more tailored resumes, more tailored covered letters. More direct sort of through LinkedIn or what have you tried to get a connection within that company? Not that that’s what effectively got me interviews in any way. But I just, you could just be more focused that way. It was really clear.
Exactly and I think that it’s more focused and it’s how you are, how you’re going along in the process, for those listening. It’s like if you’re at the stage, where you’re having trouble getting your resume and cover letter through the process or you’re having trouble getting interviews, then you want to be applying for everything. You want to be trying to get some conversations going and some stuff happening. But if you’re at the point where you’re getting lots of interviews, you really can’t afford to be discerning about which ones you decide to go for. And then when you actually do interview, you want to be really focused.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And really discerning about interviewing them and vice versa.
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Right. And to your point then, what that does is, I think it’s just you’re kind of, it’s a narrower selection, but you’re more likely to get a hit. And when you get a hit, it’s just so much more of a meaningful conversation when you speak to the company about the role and what you can do. That part to me, I felt like there were times where I was just so scattered. “Okay, what industry is this that I’m going to talk to this person about, and what’s important there?” I have no idea. And it was really like, oh, and then I got to switch gears completely on the next day, because it’s a whole different industry and I was-
It got a little nuts. And it probably showed in my interviews. I doubt that at all, right?
Yeah. And but it also gave you some clarity along the way, right? So-
That it was just part of your process and there was no right or wrong to it.
It absolutely, yeah.
But it’s just like, “Yeah, okay, so I did talk to this person, and it was great conversation, but it’s just not the industry I want.” Right?
Or you just learned and you couldn’t have known that unless you did it, right?
Yeah, yeah or you start bending what you think it is you want to do and how you do it. And it’s like, “Oh, I could do it there. Sure.” And it gets a little like, “I don’t know, man. I just feels wrong.”
Yeah, exactly. And I think that deep down, right?
It’s just like you start justifying and then making excuses and being like, “Oh, well, I could make that work, even though it’s a huge commute. And I had to-”
Yeah, I know, and I remember there was one specific one, if you remember, right? It was a tuna company. My heart wasn’t in it and I was full on interviewing. And I’m like, “Why do I care?” I’m like, “I didn’t really like it.
Yeah. You’re like, “I don’t really love this?”
I didn’t get it. And I was totally depressed I didn’t get it. I’m like, “I was making a million and one concessions as to why it was a good idea to go do it and then I don’t why I even thought that way.”
Yeah, well, things work out.
Things work out for you how they’re supposed to work out, right, especially when your belief is there, right. And I think we came to the conclusion that you weren’t all in on the tuna.
Yeah, exactly. [crosstalk 00:23:30].
So, yeah. And I mean, I’m glad you weren’t because now look, look what’s been able to open up because of that, right?
Yeah. So, what shifts come to mind like the main ones during our work together that really moved that needle? So it was like the value and discerning that you get to choose, that you have options. Anything else come to mind?
I think one thing that was made clear to me through your questions taking me through a process, right? You questioned a lot of the, “Why did you do that? And so, how did that make you feel?” And one of the
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things I think I drew from that was effectively, there’s a mindset. And that’s a generic way to say, “You have a choice to make about how you think about what’s happening to you,” right?
You could go down a very negative path of sort of devaluing, if you will, what your experiences have been and the experiences you’ve had to date are in this process. And also, even bigger with your own, with your career and what it means or you could simply choose to say, “Well, no. I’m more valuable than that. I’m more valuable than just simply this last position that I tried for and didn’t get. There is someone that is going to value what I have to bring to the table and it’s going to yield the pay that I’m expecting with the responsibility and role that I want to go get.” That’s, I can’t stress enough. I’m sorry. It’s such a choice.
And that hit me square in the face in talking with you over the course of last couple of months. That was-
Totally. And I love that you said that because it’s like it’s your choice, but it’s not someone else’s choice how much you get paid. It might look like that. It might be like, “Well, they offered me this and I need to get out of here, so this is.” But it’s not, that isn’t the only choice.
It just happens to be the choice in front of you…
In front of me.
… which is great that you had it, but you didn’t have to take it, right?
I like using metaphors, so it’s like you’re on a train and you can choose to get off at that stop or you can keep going. There’s going to be another stop, so.
Yep, yep. Is this where I want to be?
Yeah, exactly. It’s like you can take a look around and you can ask the questions, but you can get back on the train and keep going.
Yep, keep going. That’s exactly right, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And I love how they said to you, they were like, “Well, if you change your mind, you can come.”
Right, yeah. [crosstalk 00:25:55]. I was interviewing for another role and he’s like, “Is there going to be one in two weeks?” I said, “Ah, maybe.” And he goes, “Well, now, it’s time. You can always come back and just talking about it and see what we’ve going on.” At that time, it did, but yeah.
Yeah, and it’s just people have that fear around turning down an offer, right?
Or they have a fear about leaving. And it’s like you always have to do what’s best for you.
Yeah, so and everybody else does what’s best for them, too, if they’re not lying to themselves, right?
So that’s, and it’s okay to do that. So, looking back at what you’ve been able to achieve, what are you most proud of?
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Oh, given the situation in my current role and really being able to define what I wanted and just really going through with it, I guess, I don’t know. That sounds a little honest, but-
Yeah, like staying the course and getting it done.
Yeah, a little bit of really, I think that the real success is understanding that it’s a process and understanding that it’s not something that’s going to immediately pay dividends. But if you find a way to continually rationalize it, hone in on what you’re after, and keep and stay true to that, it works.
Yeah, that’s the hard part. Yeah, that’s the hard part. It’s like staying true to what you really want when everything could be pulling you in another direction, right?
You’re going, and then you not following those paths because they’re there.
Correct, because they’re just simply there and it’s, and in my case, I mean, it’s been a difficult situation at work. And, “Well, this is my path out. I got an out. I got it out.” And yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah. And it can be hard not to take that. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Yeah. So, what would you want to tell people who were in the situation that past you was in?
Imagine someone is sitting at their desk, frustrated, working way over time. I mean, “I got to get out of here.”
Yeah. Not in a good environment. Yeah, I would say as hard as it is, realize that you have a lot more to offer than you think. It’s probably not enough to hear someone say that to you, but it is true. And if it’s getting in the way of you being able to set up a way or a strategy or a process to move on, that’s where I was going to say, a coach can help you figure that out. You’re in many ways your own worst enemy when you’re stuck in those types of situations and-
Yeah, because you can’t see beyond where you are, yeah.
Yeah. You need someone who’s just got this outside perspective, who can tell you. And I talk to my wife and I talk to friends, and all of those things, and they’re going to tell you things. And you kind of, you want to hear it from them, but you don’t really believe them. I don’t know how else to say it.
Yeah. It’s like someone who’s really there to just tell you the truth. “That’s all I’m here for.”
Yeah, that’s what you need. You just need someone, exactly.
Yeah. It’s like, “Why are you working 12 hours a day?” It’s not.
It’s [crosstalk 00:28:53]. It makes no sense. Why would you want that? Why would you stay in that.
And being someone like yourself, who has these really high standards and who really wanted to create change and make these beautiful things happen, where you were working, and it just wasn’t. And just knowing that you had to move on, and having that knowing inside you, right? And that was enough to get you going to make that decision in the first place because a lot of people don’t even-
That they are like, “Yeah, maybe one day or this is too secure,” whatever, right? That decision in the first place. But then also, and also just doing what it took to get there, right?
So, even though you were doing it on your own for a while, and you were going around, you were getting interviews.
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Yeah, that was definitely just really not at random, but well, not largely around in some cases, it seems like an interesting thing to do, so I had applied. And yeah, no, I was getting interviews in that regard. So that’s what that, there was a bit of validation. “Okay, so I do have value to add.” But then it’s just really completing that perspective of like, “So, how do you get through this?” This is a weird process we have.
I’ve hired people in my past. I’ve interviewed people. I’ve participated in panel interviews and appeal interviews, all of those things. And it’s such, just a bizarre way that we have to understand how people work. So as much as you could do to understand that perspective is going to help you. And I think that’s for me, the coaching side of it really, really, really helped. In that regard. It just helped and in many ways, right? I talked about towards that mindset of these preconceived notions you have about what this process is, and what you need to be saying, when you get into there.
And for me, it was a bit of, I was interviewing for director level, senior manager level positions. So, I felt like, “Oh, this is a whole level I’ve never interviewed in before. So, it’s going to be even more so that I have to say the right things in the right ways with the right words.” And none of that is true.
It’s even more pressure, right?
And that’s a really good point, too because for people listening, you’re probably wanting to up level where you are right now. And you probably have a lot of those same thoughts. A lot of it is like, “Oh, this is big. This is more than what I’m doing. This is better than what I’m doing. I have to be good.” And those thoughts, that’s what creates so much pressure on you and then when you’re feeling that pressure, you end up not doing what you want to be doing. You totally lose who you are. You forget who you are.
Yes, yes, exactly. [crosstalk 00:31:29].
And then there was one main shift, I remember where you were talking about the value that you had added, and the fact that you had solved this inventory problem or something, and you ended up saving millions of dollars and you’re like, “Wow. Okay. I do deserve to be in this position and paid more and this is actually a good deal they’re getting.” Tell us about how that shifted for you.
It was, it’s one of those things that was a very concrete example that for whatever reason, probably because of what I perceive them to want to know that I didn’t bring it in for some reason. But I think you started, you just walked me down that path and it came out. I’m like, “Why haven’t I ever said that before?” I honestly, I think I was just so caught up in my own thinking about what I needed to say, instead of just really sharing the facts as to what I’ve done.
But what it did do is it really gave a lot more confidence that even if I even if I didn’t bring that fact in, it just kind of-
Just you remembering that,
Yeah, me remembering the fact that I’ve done that just added confidence that when I say to people, “I’ve effectively managed inventory to within certain levels, dah, dah, dah, dah, for a positive like a financial or whatever. It’s just I could say it, and it was just with the full faith and competence that I’ve done it.
And if I needed to get into a specific story about it, I could easily go there if they want to or whatever.
Exactly, yeah. And that’s something that you have to believe and have that knowing that you’re like, “Yeah, and I could do this.” You have the… you’re like, “Yeah, my brain can solve these problems. I know
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I can do this.” It’s I say to people, “I can tell you what to say, I can give you the perfect script, but I can’t give you the self-confidence you need.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.
That’s what has to come from you. And that’s where the shifts come in, where you look at it and you’re like, “Oh, yeah, I did do that.” Right? Yeah.
So, how would you describe coaching to someone who’s never experienced it before and has no idea what it is?
Oh, boy. I think for me, in sort of crossing the threshold, if you will, that I needed a coach or I thought coaching seemed a good idea, I think there’s a certain amount of stigma that goes with that decision. Because and truthfully as a professional with some success, it seems as if you’ve got that stuff figured out.
Or you should have it, right?
You should have it figured out. So, I’m not operating like a professional that I think I am if I need that, right? Which is actually you stop and read every successful CEOs journey, they probably have been coached from now, it’s making them calm about how to make sure that they’re doing the right thing in that role. So, it’s sort of this weird, there was a bit of a weird paradigm there that I had to cross. Yeah, that was, that makes sense.
And what was it that helped you cross it? What made you decide, “Oh, yeah, that’s when I knew.”
Failure. I suck at this. I’m going in these interviews and I feel like thoroughly, crazy to say, right? But I just felt like ill-prepared. I felt like there was something missing. I didn’t feel confident. I was in sort of thing, I could tell I wasn’t jibing. It was these conversate conversations weren’t having, happening. It was really just a question, answer, question, answer.
Yeah, yeah. And then when we look at the facts of what you’ve done, it’s like it doesn’t match up with the interview experience that you’re having.
Correct, yeah, with the interview experience. Absolutely, yeah. I’m just thinking about some of the jobs that have come and gone through that process, and I was like, “Those are just things I could have easily done,” right? And looking back now, those are jobs in some cases that interview where I probably wouldn’t want, so yeah.
Yeah. Going back to the discerning of knowing what you want.
Not having to do that, yeah, for sure. And I also wanted to ask you about a little bit about now. And you got this new job. It’s very exciting. It’s what you wanted, check the boxes. How do you perceive your life is going to be different now?
So, I could tell you this, I have no sort of expectations that life is going to, life will be better. I’m doing this because all the research I’ve done around it is leading me to believe that this is going to be the right next step for many reasons. However, there’s minefields in every job you walk into, so it will be just a different set of problems. And I get that, right? The idea is though-
You just have better quality problems now at a higher level.
Correct. It’s still going to be problems, but there’s probably going to be from what I could tell, the support is going to be there to get through it. Right? I’m in a different position, where these are the types of problems that are I’m supposed to find there’s things, and we’re supposed to bring them up, and we’re going to resolve them as a team in a setting.
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So, it’s a little bit of a different perspective and I think through this process, and even some of the coaching, there was one thing that really I remember what we worked on. And the way you described, maybe even approaching conflict or approaching different situations now, that you used the word “keeping curiosity” to understand why a conflict exists or that curiosity understand that perspective, that’s creating the conflict. That has resounded, like it’s just resonated with me so well.
And I think that’s for me, honestly, from the coaching perspective, I even applied it, in my last couple of months at work, and really try to use that to stay constructive and positive in situations where you have these types of things. And I think that’s just really set me up I think, for go forward approach to how I’m going to solve problems.
So, yeah. [crosstalk 00:37:15].
And I wanted to share, too, when you brought that up about how you used it in the interview, too, because a lot of people have interview experiences where they meet someone, and they’re like, “Oh, this person, it’s weird. They seem off. I feel like they’re attacking me or they’re not making any facial expressions.” It’s like getting curious about the person’s perspective, their point of view, and then being able to see that differently. Do you remember that?
I do. I specifically remember about that. It wasn’t the job I ended up getting, but it was a different one that was far along the process in and initial interviews. It was a reach out and field type of column first. And it felt like it was the person on the other end was all over the map. “Whoa, man, they’re just, this is just craziness it felt.”
Like, “I don’t get this person. They’re weird. What are they?”
Yeah, like, “This is strange.”
“I don’t know if I want to work with them.” Right? Yeah.
This is strange. And then I had sort of more of a formal sit down, half-hour to 45 minute conversation, it was like, “Okay.” But keeping that perspective open, staying curious about what they were up against, and maybe why they’re acting the way. You could see, “Okay, I see what’s going on.” It’s dah, dah, dah, dah. Certain circumstances around that position and that was the job at that time. We’re leading into that kind of what seemed a disconnected series of statements, so when I was talking about it originally. Now, okay, I see what’s going on, so.
And you were able to get curious about it to figure out what it was. Because I remember you said you asked some questions, and then you were able to.
Specifically, it ended up, it felt like in that part of the interview, I was asking him more questions about what was going on than the other way around. And it led to discussions about some of the problems they had to solve and what they were up against, so.
Yeah, and then you understood him better.
And then you weren’t feeling so like weirded out by him.
Yeah, no, it was, it got to be like, “Okay, now, I get it. This would be an organization I could work for.” It kind of it’s settled a lot of that concern, I guess.
Yeah. And being able to use that in interviews, also on the job, just going to the curiosity piece and compassion, like, “Oh, they probably have a good reason for them being like that.” Just giving people about the best-
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The benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Assuming they’re intending the best, that’s always a good first move, right?
Unless they prove otherwise, but it’s always good. Yeah.
Yeah, and there’s probably some circumstances about the situation that I’ve been in at work that led me to sort of, the difficult part when we talked about this, Natalie, is it just seems obvious that that’s what we should do as good people, right?
It’s the first thing that goes out the door when you’re confronted with 80 different things, 20 of them have conflicts, and everyone’s upset and everyone’s in a hurry and it just all that goes out the window. Right? So, that’s, I think another we talked about why coaching, I think that to me really helped set things a bit, so yeah.
Yeah. And you totally took all those all those things and used them and applied them right away.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And you were able to create those changes right away, which is awesome. And so, what do you see, what else? You’ve already answered the question about what you’ll take from this moving forward. And interpersonal skills are huge, that’s going to, that one thing will completely carry you into your next position, right? Being able to get curious with people, understand them, lead them.
The other part, I’d say just because the role that I did end up taking is I’m not managing people. And I don’t have direct reports, so I’m managing process and a system, right? It opened my eyes to the fact that I have enough expertise in certain areas to drive the salary that I was looking for, that didn’t require people management.
Yeah, that’s another limiting belief that you have, right? It was like, “Oh, I need to manage people to be able to make this salary to have this position.” And it was, it turns out that wasn’t true.
And it’s not necessarily true, right. It probably has to do with what industry you’re in. A lot of different factors go into that. And until you’ve understood what they are, you jump to these conclusions, right? It seems very logical to you, but when you sit down and really, all of that could get twisted pretty quickly.
Yeah. And it reminded me of another limiting belief that you had about having to have done everything that your reports have done?
You’re like, “Oh, I haven’t done that yet, so how am I?”
I remember that one.
And I was like, “Why?”
How am I going to be able to help somebody, yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Like, “Why would you have had to have done it?”
Yeah, so yeah. And those are just things that we just don’t know that we have, right? We just think it’s fact. It’s just like, “Oh, yeah, I’m pointing at the sun. It’s right there. It’s like that’s a fact. I have to have
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that.” So yeah, and that’s what I see coaching is, too. It’s like we’re just poking holes in those things and just questioning. Is that really true? Because yeah.
Yeah, it could totally hold something back. And yeah, so last two questions. What do you want to advise people or what do you want them to know who are on their journey right now, who are maybe like have been in it for a while or are scared to leave, any words of wisdom for them?
It’s never as bad as you think it is or there’s, I guess the better way of putting it is you have a lot more value to offer than you think you do.
I think that’s the key. Yeah.
Yeah, and I think it’s a matter of-
And it’s you have to see it, yeah.
You have to see it and there’s a certain amount of, you have to be able to basically put into sort of tangible deliverables that you’ve done in the past or things you’ve done to drive your confidence to be able to speak to the value that it’s done. You need that. You need those facts behind what you’re saying, just to really elevate the discussion to really sell that you’ve done it, right? I don’t know how else to put it in that it’s that.
Yeah. No. That’s really well said, yeah, for sure. And then my last question was what made you specifically sign up to work with me? Because there’s lots of coaches out there. What was it that you heard or what was it that you resonated with at? Yeah.
Yeah, so to tell the truth, it was, a lot of it was the podcast. Hearing people with and it’s weird for me to have gone through listening to the podcast and now, being on it. It’s weird and like-
I know. It’s so awesome. Full circle moment.
Yeah, it is. But I’ll tell you early on my resume I thought was a disaster, obviously, because I’m coming from this place of “I had no value to anybody.” So, I needed help with a resume, sorry. I actually-
That could influence the resume, yeah.
So, I decided I needed help with the resume, so I contacted someone else. They helped me with the resume and they talked to me about coaching and the approach and the way. Not all coaches are the same, I think, is what I’d say. And the fact that I had this. I didn’t fit. I don’t think it was going to be a good fit with that coach. So I said, “Oh, I’ll just leave it aside for now.”
And then I started listening to the podcast and I honestly for me now, it was your demeanor. You don’t… what’s the word I’m looking for you? You don’t use a lot of big technical terms that, business buzz words or ways of talking about situations. You’re just really plain English talk about the process and what’s in it. And that to me was refreshing. I really liked that. I think of, I don’t to talk with big words and big thoughts. I just want to break it down simply. I want to understand things that are very base level.
And I think your approach and hearing you talk with people that have had success just resonated.
And thank you for saying. That’s really good feedback for me because I asked myself very often like, “How can I make this more simple and more clear for them?” Because if you can get it in these plain terms, then you can go forward, yeah.
And then you have this tendency to use that, the broken up relationship with the past to sell it. It’s just like, “Oh, my God. That makes sense.”
To reframe it into how it can serve you. Yeah.
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Teach you how, yeah, to something probably experience or maybe not. But you lanced [crosstalk 00:45:10].
Yeah, I love doing that, too. It’s like, “The past is the past. We can’t change it, so we might as well tell the story in a way that helps.”
That’s helps, absolutely, yeah.
Versus hinders, yeah.
Yeah and but-
Because a lot of people are using the past as an evidence to why they can’t succeed in the future. And the truth is, the past has nothing to do with your future.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I always think that’s a credit to you and just your approach, so I just, I don’t know. It felt right.
Well, thank you. So, yeah, and that’s to everybody listening to the podcast. It’s kind of like Ric said, it’s like you need to resonate with the person’s approach, right? And if you feel you do then there’s, then the only thing stopping you would be your own belief in yourself to meet the other halfway. So, thank you. Is there anything else you’d like to add? Those are all my questions. Any final words you want to leave?
Final words, it’s a marathon, not a sprint, definitely, it’s been at least. It’s probably from the day I decided to move on to the day I took an offer, it was 10 months. I thought it was-
Well, from the time you started working with me to the time you got the ultimate offer was four months?
Four months, correct. Yeah.
And the timeline is not really important, I don’t think. Because I mean, yeah. It’s like if you had 10 months, but you were not really sure what you were doing for the first time, for the first of six months, right?
Correct, yes, yes.
So, it’s like you can and I’ve had people who succeed really fast, and some people who it takes a little bit longer. But the point is, at the end of the day, you have achieved this thing that now you get to benefit from for the rest of your life now.
Absolutely. Yeah. And I would tell you I felt like I wasted six months, in all honesty. If I just had taken the plunge and started working with you much earlier on, I think this would have been just a quicker transition.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you found me at the right time, because that’s what happened.
Yeah, because that’s what happened.
But I do hear a lot of people say that. They’re like, “I wish that I’d met you sooner.” And I wish I’d met my coaches sooner, too. But we met when we met and I was just thinking, a good thought to have is you achieved a lot already without having any coaching. So with coaching, it just elevates you because you were already successful, right?
Yeah, it’s a good accelerator, right?
It collapses the timeline, yeah. That’s what the point of it is. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on. It’s been so great. I really think people are going to get tons of value from this and they’re going to get a lot of really great feedback. So thanks, again for sharing. And I will talk to you soon.
Yeah. No. Thank you, Natalie. And everybody listening just stay positive, you can do it.
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Absolutely. Good words.
Hey there, so if you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, I want to invite you to something very special. And as you know, you know I’ve been coaching one-on-one for years and you’ve heard me talk about all my clients and you’ve heard them come on the podcast. And from these experiences and from all these hours that I’ve done coaching, I’ve created the ultimate program where I take you through the steps that I walked everyone through to achieve the unreasonable results that they’ve achieved. And I don’t just mean getting a job, just getting any job or making things a little better here or there, I mean life-changing results, doubling salaries, switching industries while doubling salary, getting six-figure positions with no official paid experience, and just creating a life that they didn’t imagine was possible. This isn’t for special people or unicorns, this is for everybody as long as they’re willing to be open and apply the work.
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