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Welcome to the Get a 6-Figure Job You Love podcast. This is episode 81. We’re doing another success interview today with a student of the 6-Figure curriculum, Frank [Gabusi 00:00:10]. The reason why I do these interviews and I’ll continue to do these interviews, is because I really want you to have an insight as to how somebody else will articulate their success, how they were thinking and what they did, and what they’re doing differently than you are, if you’re not getting that result that you’re looking for.
My goal here is for you to take value from every single one of these amazing participants who generously shares their knowledge, their experience, their thoughts, their feelings with you so that you can go out and believe that you can produce the same results and also know that there’s support available for you. If you need it, you know where we are. Join the 6-Figure curriculum. Get in there and start reaping the benefits. What are you waiting for? All right, I will see you on the interview. Stay tuned.
Hey there, welcome to the Get a 6-Figure Job You Love podcast. I’m your host, Natalie Fisher. I’m a certified career mindset coach who also happens to want to skip all the BS and get to what it really takes to create real results for you in your career.
On this podcast, you will create real mindset shifts that will lead to big results and big changes in your career and your income. No fluff here. If you want to get a six-figure job you love and create real concrete results in your industry and make a real impact, you’re in the right place. Are you ready? Let’s go.
Welcome to the podcast everybody. Today, I have a very fun guest on today who’s going to share about his experience working with me in my program and about his successes. I’d like to introduce Frank Gabusi. Frank, please go ahead. Take it from there. Introduce yourself. Let us know what you’re about, what you do, whatever you want to tell us.
Alrighty. I’m Frank Gabusi calling from New York. I was actually, Natalie had mentioned about me being slightly different than all other things but I’m like, “No, learning this course is there’s a lot of things that are just universal.” My position, they call it an IT business, Alice, what is it in English? You’re helping people improve. You like that, Natalie?
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Helping people improve what they do at work and the great example and it just hit me just before, if you find a better way to drive to work, you improved your process, and to try to put into layman’s terms, and also helping to create checklists to design software.
Awesome.
I will go [inaudible 00:02:41] next question.
I love how you put it in simple form. I’d like to then simplify whenever possible.
I was trying to think about it.
For everybody listening, that’s great. Yes. Yeah, I want to start with, that’s what you do now. Did you always do that? What kind of challenges did you have before you came to work with me in the program? Where are you at then?
Right. I can go back a little bit. I had found myself in a job with tech support. I did a career change because the job itself, I was doing business and quality analysis, testing software, as well as the other things. I felt had fallen out of favor. I did training for that and realized I didn’t really like it very much. I was working with my local internet service provider.
I wanted to go back into that and the company I was working for at the time. They give me excuses, like, “Oh, you have to do that type of work here, which made no sense.” I did anyway. I had various internal interviews, and a lot of times they would just pull the job I’m like, “Can’t I stop doing tech support and
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do this full-time, do this process improvement full-time?” No. They were simply not interested in doing that.
To refresh your memory, Natalie, I had gotten a certification course for business analysis from Laura Brandenburg. In one of her emails to me, and I guess all of her students, she said, “This person named Natalie Fisher talking about career helping,” and I thought, no, why not? I still had my job at the time. I had taken a bunch of certificate of completions for business analysis. Then, I remember not this December, but December before that, it was for another $500 you can get an actual certification sanctioned by the Institute of Business Analysis and another month of your time. Sure, why not?
I did that. I had gotten a different job. Even though I did this, I’ve actually given some thought about this. Guys, don’t do this. It was the first job that said yes, the first interviewer is literally almost the first interview was on as I was getting after I got my certification. However, in spite of that, it was a small mom and pop and I ended up taking a pay cut but I wanted the experience.
I see. Let’s recap, you went from technical support…
Tech support.
… a company where you couldn’t really move forward…
Right.
… then, getting your certification in business analysis and applying for jobs in business analysis and then getting an offer and then taking the first one, right?
Right, exactly. Doing that when I was doing tech support to help improve software that they were using.
Okay, you’re kind of doing the business analysis like [crosstalk 00:05:26].
On my own timeframe.
She’s like, “You might be doing it already and you don’t even know it.”
You mean, Laura Brandenburg?
Yeah.
Yeah, no, yeah, she’s right about, no, she’s definitely right about that. I thought, at least, I’m going to just do this just to be able to say that I had done this and various coherent examples of it, and even though I already worked there but whatever.
Yeah, but you wanted to. It sounds like it was [crosstalk 00:05:51].
Wanted to, yeah, yeah, exactly. I enjoyed doing it. I have done it similarly in the past, but not recently and I said, “You know what, you got to decide what you want to do.” Before that, when I was in the pharmaceutical industry, they call it computer validation, which is the same name, but different. It’s every industry has their own terminology. I was doing that. I thought, okay, maybe I’ll stay here for a while.
You got into the… You accepted the offer.
Business analysis, so that’s why I end up taking the job. I ended up doing that and took a pay cut for it but I thought, okay, fine, I’ll get some more experience doing it full time. Okay, fine. Then, it’s like, okay, in three months, we’ll start with this. In three months, we’ll do this. After doing an awesome job in creating IT development company policy, they totally reneged on it, which I’m certainly not happy, and I thought, okay, maybe I’ll just stay here, then.
They laid me off after six. One of the things that I thought about afterwards, and people say, “Why did you leave your last job,” the usual common human resource question. I’ve just explained, they didn’t want to do software development anymore but then I always ended it on a positive note right but then I
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accomplished this, this and this, and I like to focus on that because I’m really happy that I did that. I must have said that multiple times during the interview, in spite of taking the first offer. Then, I started-
Yeah, you take the first offer. They laid you off.
They laid me off, even though it was good experience but very little money and [crosstalk 00:07:31].
They also weren’t… They weren’t helping you to grow and they weren’t helping you…
They weren’t, no.
… progress [crosstalk 00:07:34].
It was a little too small. I mean, they did help to grow to a point because I was able to learn new things and learn new technologies and software, which is used for that type of field. I won’t be specific because it would mean nothing to anybody.
There was a tap on how much you could grow [crosstalk 00:07:52].
Good guess. Yes, definitely.
Yeah. You saw that clearly.
Yes, even before they laid me off, but I thought, “Okay, they’re not paying me much for now, but it was good experience and only 15-minute commute.” I just started actually, right, let’s see this one, 2022, 2021 most people were still working from home, but I was in the office and was only 16 minutes away, which was nice. Yeah, they laid me off. After applying, I guess it was indeed job, jobs on indeed.com. I’m getting to a point how I picked you. I had-
At that stage, where you at? You’re laid off, okay [crosstalk 00:08:31].
Yeah, right. Laid off. I’ve got to find a job. Then, the State of New York says, I couldn’t get logged into their website. I couldn’t even get on the State of New York unemployment. I had a go live off of savings, which I had enough that. That’s beside the point but still, why extend longer than you really need to do it. As you even said in somewhere, it doesn’t have to take that long. I’d certainly didn’t want to but it was more of at that time, I won’t lie, it was more of a desperation type of thing, let’s hurry to get back in the workforce. I won’t lie about that because I-
Because you’re the kind of person who likes to work, who likes that, right?
Also, I didn’t want to go through my savings either.
Exactly.
Purely practical reasons.
Yeah. A lot of people will relate to that, exactly, right?
Of course, of course.
Tell us how you navigated that and then what happened next, and then how you got to your next opportunity.
Yup. [inaudible 00:09:25] I had, it was two phone screens and a face-to-face Zoom interview, and one of the phone screens was an hour long, but still nothing forward. I thought to myself, this is nutty, this is crazy. I hadn’t mentioned this in one of the coaching sessions. It was the first time I’d interviewed on the outside of the company in 12 years, and I almost felt like almost things had changed and then, are still getting your emails and I said, “All right, well, Laura Brandenburg likes it so she must be okay.” To be totally honest.
Totally, yeah, you brought over, you got to go with what you trust, right?
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Right. I thought, well, okay, and actually, with one of your questions here and plus, I think I had seen some of your videos, didn’t really look all that much, but I thought, okay, she certainly seems relatable. In terms of the money, it’s like you’re taking a course in college. You don’t try to get a discount on it. I mean, it be nice. Let’s not laugh about that. It would be nice, but that’s the price and that’s it. Folks, one of the questions to say is, was it worth the money? Yes, on that resounding yes. It’s like taking a college course or like taking a course for your job that you’re going … things you can use.
How did you use them in this process? You said, you had a few breakthroughs on the calls on Tuesday.
Oh, yeah.
You’re in a situation where you’re like, “Okay, now I’m going to go find my next job.” How did you use the information to go get that?
Yeah, actually I thought of this just before now, if you told me a year ago, an interview is nothing but answering questions and telling stories, I thought you would have lost your head but, no.
What did you think it was?
Good question. I didn’t think of it as that. It was just more of the answering questions and I remember even in the past too about like, overpreparing, and being grilled on questions because I thought, I mean, it’s not recently but I do remember thinking that in the past.
Yeah. Even the language like being grilled.
Oh yeah.
That doesn’t sound very fun, right?
When I’m listening to videos, no, it doesn’t actually, when I’m listening to the videos and one of the things that’s really struck a chord, and you’re saying, “You’re telling these stories like you’re talking to your best friend,” and that really struck a chord. One part of my brain said, “Oh, this is cool.” The other part of my brain says, “What, are you kidding me?” But then the first part my, the intelligent part says, “What have you got to lose?”
Exactly, right? Because if you haven’t been doing it that way so far…
Right.
… it hasn’t work, so why not?
It hasn’t worked. I thought, why not? It’s not like, [inaudible 00:12:13] and all the interviews were from Zoom and GoToMeeting anyway. It’s not like you have to drive three hours or something to get to it. It was really purely practical. What do you have to lose? One of the things that had occurred to me when I was thinking about this, Natalie, is one of those, Tony Robbins likes to call it limiting beliefs and you as well.
I actually wrote this down, it says, “You could be in an enthusiast, passionate person and still be professional,” when I was sitting there and thinking about this. I’m thinking, I mean, I had stopped being that but it occurred to me, that’s what I was doing. Somehow it gotten into my head, “Well, you can’t be professional if you do all that and you’re genuine and authentic.”
Yeah.
I can say that’s not the case. I realized, well, maybe that’s not the case. Like you even said in one of your emails, they wanted to hire the you, not the you that you want them to see.
Exactly, yeah. Someone like you who has such a magnetic, nice personality, where everyone likes to talk to you.
Well, thank you very much.
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It’s like, if you’re trying to hold that back and trying to be professional, then that’s going to have a different result for you.
You would be 100% correct there. Yes. No, that was definitely because I didn’t realize it at the time but and you sit and you think, and it’s like you feel the emotions and you feel intellectually about what was working and then I realized I had that limiting belief. I just remember thinking, it’s like, “Oh, right, that’s what was affecting a lot of these things.”
Yeah. To reiterate you, you used to believe, I can’t be authentic and passionate and be professional at the same time, those things don’t go together. Questioning that belief allowed you to-
I didn’t realize until afterwards, I’ll be honest with you. When I was actually thinking of the podcast, because I’m thinking, what is working and I intuitively had stopped believing that. Afterwards, it’s like, “Okay, how are you going to tell somebody this that somebody can use?” I realized, “Oh wait a minute, that was the belief I had.”
Yeah, yeah.
That’s crazy. That’s-
This is cool because you realized that after. You’re like, “Oh, I don’t believe that anymore. I used to. That was the problem, kind of put it together.” Yeah.
Right. Yeah. No, totally. I couldn’t articulate it at the time, I’ll be honest, but it was only afterwards when you’re sitting there thinking about this and with this, you had started focusing on about what was working.
What do you think something like, you’ve mentioned some cool moments in interviews that you’d had now being able to express yourself differently and [crosstalk 00:14:43]. Do you want to share some of those, like one of them?
Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. One of them is, actually I’m going to start with the preparation before the cool moments interviews because I think it will help everybody.
Yeah. Go ahead.
You had mentioned about telling the story, and I’m thinking okay, I had mentioned this in one of your coaching sessions now, and I don’t expect you to remember this, but it really bears repeating, where in your cover letter, it answers the question, why should we hire you? It also answers the question, tell me about yourself, which I’ve also heard or what makes you different. That was simply a general summary about what I’ve been doing. I’ve been on IT professional for 17 years. I’ve been doing business analysis for six years.
Then, I would discuss my certification and degree and then accomplishments. Then, these were in the cover letter. Not everybody, and the beauty of it, not everybody reads the cover letter because a lot of people just…
That’s true.
… they look at your resume and that’s fine but I realized, wait, this is useful. I can certainly do this. I did that and the only, the hard part is, okay, what accomplishments do you want to talk about? That was kind of the hard one and that you have to prepare for but it’s not even and again, I thought about this, I said, “Well, it’s not really memorizing the story. It’s just the question of which one do you want to say,” and as you mentioned in one of the videos, it’s like which story you want to tell your best friend.
You’re not remembering and this also, and I’m going to expand on what you said in the video, when you’re telling a story to your best friend, you don’t have to remember what the story is. You just tell it and you’re not exactly concerned about grammar and punctuation and things like that, and then realize-
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You’re looking professional and knowing [crosstalk 00:16:23].
Professional, looking professional. It also occurred to me, I said, “Wait a minute, I remember this, I didn’t get this job but I remember telling one of the stories and the HR person you can tell she just sat there and just like, she’s like totally facing and totally engaged with what I was saying.” Of course, you can tell that.
I realized there’s one interview which I had mentioned on the calls where, we went 20 minutes over and a lot of the things small talk, I ultimately didn’t get the job and that’s nice and that’s all well and good but it occurred to me, I said, “Well, wait a minute, I can replicate this. This is a good thing.”
That’s so good. That’s a key distinction. I just want to pause there is…
Oh no, no, definitely.
… somebody else might have gotten into that situation, not had it, not got the job and thought something completely different, right?
Oh, no.
Like, “Oh, I did it wrong. I messed it up.”
Oh, that’s a good point. I haven’t thought of that.
Instead, you went straight to, “Oh, well, I can improve on this. I can use this. She was really engaged. That worked,” right?
Right or [crosstalk 00:17:24].
That distinction right there, yeah. That distinction right there is what leads you to getting the result faster, to having more, to keeping momentum going versus shutting it down…
Good point.
… which is what most people do automatically without even noticing. I just wanted to pick that out because that’s something that you did that maybe that…
Okay.
… you’ve trained yourself to do that now [crosstalk 00:17:43] in the work and you’ve been but you’re doing it very automatically, right? Which is fantastic.
It kind of was but I remember there’s one interview, which that was one instance, another one was, it was a group of one, let’s see, one, two, was it four people or three people? Something that is just like one person started going in there and one might, one brain says, “Oh, geez.” Then, the other part of your brain says, “Oh, come on, Frank. You’ve got this. This is ridiculous.” I won’t lie about that.
What your brain says, yeah.
Right. It’s amazing if you tell your brain not to do things.
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You can. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
But that wasn’t even necessary. Again, it was 20 minutes. Flipping on the whiteboard, we were making all sorts of smart talk. That’s when at that particular interview, this was the one before the HR professional that was looking and engaged, that I realized, “Yes, this, I can replicate. This is a good thing.”
This is work.
I’m just trying to think of what other-
Yeah, fantastic. This is, I also wanted to go back because people don’t know about what’s inside the program but there’s a cover letter template…
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Oh, yes, cover letter.
… [crosstalk 00:18:52], the cover letter [crosstalk 00:18:52].
A resume template.
But Frank’s talking about that helped him get inspired to actually be able to answer the questions and actually talk about the three accomplishments in the interview, not just put them on paper because as you mentioned…
[crosstalk 00:19:05].
… and that’s correct, not everybody reads the cover letter, but there’s more of a purpose than just having it read. It actually helps you when you’re doing it, the exercise of actually writing it. Fantastic. Okay.
[crosstalk 00:19:16].
I’m getting that you figured out what was working very quickly, like you were paying very close attention in the interview, what was just [crosstalk 00:19:22]…
Right, I had a sense of that.
… and what wasn’t. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Just had a sense of that. Actually, when the success guru, Wayne Dyer talks about this, he passed away a couple years ago, he had an interview with success guru, Tony Robbins and he talks about being genuine and authentic because he was on the American late night talk show, The Tonight Show in the 1970s, which I honestly did not know that but he was very popular at that time.
He was just saying about being genuine, authentic and that’s why the host at that time, Johnny Carson, liked him. I said, “Well, that’s kind of interesting.” I realized that’s also great. That’s sort of [inaudible 00:19:56] interviews about being generous and authentic. When I-
Yeah. I’m not going to like you for being genuine and authentic. That’s something too, right?
[inaudible 00:20:08] my current view, but I think when you said about not liking, and it’s not mentioned enough, I don’t think but I’m glad you brought that up. Sometimes people will turn you down for positions and do you a favor…
Yes.
… instead of you have to do it…
Exactly.
… which I didn’t realize it at the time had you told me a year ago. What [inaudible 00:20:28]? What do mean? You lost the job. That’s crazy. I realized at the time, one interview, there was just no chemistry at all. It wasn’t a bad thing. It just one of those we just didn’t hit it off. I was like, “Okay.” That wasn’t bad.
Just wasn’t bad.
I mean, another one was just whatever reason it was. The another one was, and this I, the thing that at the time but I realized afterwards the person was, could not, when I was mentioning about unique thing, the processes I had come up with, the person who the company I was working for, and was incredulous to him that it was even necessary, which I said, “I’m not just making this up. This actually happened. Not everybody does this.” He kept harping on the fact that I was doing tech support, which I thought was rather bizarre. This is afterwards. I’m like, “Well, yes, but people make changes, sir.” I didn’t say this during the interview, but I thought of it afterwards. I realized, “You know what, I don’t want to work for that person.” That’s just crazy.
Yeah. He didn’t understand, right? This is a great example.
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No, he didn’t. Right. I wanted to put this up.
Yeah. Really, this is going to serve a lot of people hearing that too because it’s like, if you go, like, if I use myself as an example, I’m like, I go to a football game and I try to offer professional coaching to these football players, they’re going to like, “Lady, what are you talking about? Where did you even come from? Why do you?” They just don’t get it, right?
But if I’m sharing information with people who follow Laura Brandenburg or people who are looking for the information, or people who are really interested in it, they’re going to be like, “Oh, yes, thank you. That was helpful. I get it. [crosstalk 00:21:59], right? Then, it’s the same in interviews, right? This guy’s like, “What? Why are you? Why do you even do that?” That didn’t help. What are you talking about? It’s like, “It’s not [crosstalk 00:22:08].”
Right. Exactly. He was name dropping the original owners because it was privately owned at the time. I’m thinking to myself, and I didn’t say this, but I thought [inaudible 00:22:15] such and such a family had not been part of the company for a bunch of years and now you’re bringing this up? What does this have to do with price of tea in China?
There’s different ways [crosstalk 00:22:24].
When I found that, [crosstalk 00:22:24] turn down, yeah, when I found that I was turned down, I’m thinking, “No, you did me a favor,” which is-
[crosstalk 00:22:30] guidance, right? You’re like…
Oh yeah.
… “Okay, that wasn’t the path.”
That wasn’t it. That, folks, I don’t want to belabor the point on, but really, sometimes they will do that favor or you just know when the interview is over, the one with no cameras, just once it was done, I’m like, “Yeah, I know this [inaudible 00:22:47].” It just didn’t [crosstalk 00:22:49].
No need for a [crosstalk 00:22:49]. We’re good here.
That’s right. Exactly. I was just thinking about that. I actually wrote some little. Great. When I started to realize I can replicate it, you talked about not focusing on outcome. IT occurred to me that I think I’d become numb to it because I was trying to think of myself, “Okay, that’s all great. That’s great and okay. We’ll go focus on [inaudible 00:23:21].” You can’t just tell somebody that. You have to internalize it.
I realized, yeah, I had truly become numb to it. At the point, by the time I got to the interview, where I realized, “Hey, I can replicate this.” This was maybe seven or eight interviews and/or phone screens at that point in time. It was also after trying once or twice, it’s like, again, what have I got to lose? I might as well be genuine, enthusiastic, and it’s just sort of see what happens. Then, you realized, you’re right, that people do appreciate the energy you’re giving out.
Yes.
They do appreciate even if you’re saying [inaudible 00:23:57] other word, more or less, but they’re not going to care. They’re really not…
Yeah, not at all.
… they’re really not going to care. Not at all.
Yeah. I mean, that’s the thing, people think it’s like, “Oh, I have to talk perfectly and [crosstalk 00:24:08]…
Perfect. I used to think that too.
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… they use more ums. They actually use more ums because they’re putting more pressure on themselves.
Right, didn’t know. Exactly and that’s crazy or even poke fun at it if…
Yeah, I mean that’s just so much [crosstalk 00:24:21].
… it comes down to it.
I’ve had, lots of people on my podcast that use a lot of ahms…
Well, that’s okay.
… I say so a lot. It doesn’t affect our results.
No, no, no, it doesn’t. I just remember thinking that when I, so I would say, yeah, definitely it just becoming numb to it when you are telling the story about and let’s say a concert you went to, again, you don’t have to remember what it is, the story you just are going to tell it.
Exactly.
This person should [crosstalk 00:24:53].
Because you want to share for the joy of sharing…
It’s called sharing.
… not because you want someone to approve of you or you want to get a cookie for it.
That’s good. No. That’s good.
Yeah.
[crosstalk 00:25:04].
Tell us about the becoming numb to it. By that, you mean like you were not affected by the…
That’s a good question.
… results along the way? You were just kind of like and the outcome?
I think it was a combination of, first, it was sort of frustration that of having to go through this and I know you shouldn’t do that and you’ve mentioned that one of your coachings there, but then I thought, “Okay.”
A lot of people feel that. A lot of think I shouldn’t have to, right?
Right. Then, I thought, “Okay, this is and I said, “Okay, you know what? She’s right. This is crazy. I’m not going to do this.” Then, I thought, first the frustration,” I realized, “No, no, no, you can have fun with this. You can surely do this.”
Oh my God, clear the difference. I shouldn’t have to go through this too. Oh, I could actually have fun with this.
Live with it. Have fun with this. I guess, it would be the best way to put it because I was trying to think, I said, “How can you explain this to somebody and just be?” You’re just being.
I like to do it like this. Tell me if this resonates with you.
Okay. Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Like playing a game and I don’t know if you play board games or video games…
Yeah, yeah.
… some people are very into them but I don’t really.
I play board games when I was a kid.
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Yeah, let’s play a board game and if you lose the board game, is it like a knife through your gut or like, “Oh my God. [crosstalk 00:26:20].” It’s like, “Oh, I lost. Let’s play again.”
That is good. I used to do both when I was a little kid, and I stopped being interested in video games but now that you, that’s right…
Something that you don’t feel so-
… because you lost, the thing destroyed. Oh my God, you’re right.
Yeah. Something you don’t feel so heavy around.
Holy moly.
It’s like, yeah. I played the game. I didn’t win. That strategy didn’t pan out. Okay, let’s play again or whatever, right? What did I learn? That was interesting. It’s something that you do already that isn’t so heavy, but we put so much heavy and pressure on and on [crosstalk 00:26:53].
That’s an excellent point. I confess, I haven’t thought of them. Yeah, because you’re playing the video game. Okay, the ship crashed or whatever it was, or you didn’t make it to the next level or whatever it was. I’m like, “Yeah, I wasn’t sure about that.”
You [crosstalk 00:27:10] start over.
You get frustrated, but it doesn’t bother you. Right, just do over, as they say.
Exactly. We can have as many…
As a little kid say.
… as we want. We [crosstalk 00:27:16]. Yeah.
That’s a good point.
That’s what I wanted to highlight was like, this was a big part of your success, which was I’m not dwelling and being overwhelmed by if something doesn’t work out. I’m not putting kind of attention there. I’m not…
In genuine.
… like I’m using it as a favor. I’m like, “Oh, they did me a favor. Great. That’s-”
Yeah. I’ll be honest with you, Natalie, I hadn’t thought of it afterwards but I’m thinking, yeah, what was working and what wasn’t? I’m thinking, “Well, wait a minute, they did you a favor. You don’t have to turn them down.”
Yeah, yeah. I’m noticing that you did a lot. You picked up a lot of stuff really automatically from the course, you didn’t even really know you were doing. Now, you’re just talking about it second nature but you really can [crosstalk 00:27:57] a lot.
I confess, I did not. It was sort of like change in the proverbial radio frequency from static to something that was clear.
Yes.
I hope this helps people.
I love that metaphor.
I couldn’t-
It’s so good. Yeah.
I was trying to think, [crosstalk 00:28:11] it makes sense to anybody here.
Yes.
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[crosstalk 00:28:14].
That’s the thoughts, right? The thoughts of like I shouldn’t have to do this. This is so frustrating to like, “Oh, this could be fun,” or like, “They did me a favor. Let’s pay them back.”
They did me a favor. It’s like they did me a favor.
Totally different. Yeah.
Another thing is to, I went from my current salary is 100,000, like I said in the email. I also wanted to make a point, this is keeping score and this was part of the interview, guys don’t do this but it worked out anyway for me, I originally asked for 80 to 90 and personally, I guess, the recruiter for the actual company itself said, “I can put [inaudible 00:28:53].” “Okay, I’ll take 100 and it’s fine,” but don’t do this, guys. Okay? I was just lucky.
Okay, wait a second. Wait a second. Say that again, how do you [crosstalk 00:29:01]?
I meant it… I mean, the first interview, the guy sees it on LinkedIn. The first interview, “Do you have this skill, this skill, this skill, this skill?” “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.” “Okay.” I elaborate on the specific skills. “What salary you’re expecting?” I say 80, 90, 100,000.” I sort of say not with forceful, I won’t lie about that. Then, the recruiter says, “Oh, I can submit you for 100,000.” I said, “Sounds good to me.”
Nice.
Not the way to do that, guys but it just fortunate though.
Well, it’s from where it came from, right? When you were saying that you were being honest and upfront about what you were asking.
Yes, I was. Yes.
Yeah.
That is a true statement. That is a true statement.
That’s why it worked for you in that situation.
I just thought, “What was I was thinking,” because I was just not hesitating, I suppose.
Yeah, exactly. You felt it, right? You [inaudible 00:29:54] with that was what you deserved.
Yeah, yeah. When he said something, when he said that, well, I’m sure they get a bonus if they hire somebody with more money but-
Yeah, the recruiters do want you to have a higher salary so that’s on your side as well.
Exactly right.
But the company can still say no, right?
Good point. Well, actually, this was the recruiter for the company, the internal recruiter. I must admit another thing that had not occurred to me prior to 12 years ago, his LinkedIn is sort of like in thing to look for jobs now. Not even a Facebook account, you’ll laugh but-
That’s okay. We’ll forgive that. Okay, I want to take people back to like it, you got this job on LinkedIn, how did you get it? What [crosstalk 00:30:39]? Was it direct connection or through an application?
No, no, no. It was not even that because I had rewritten my resume some years ago about all the right buzzwords to use. Then, the recruiter just says, “We have this job. Blah, blah, blah. Here’s the job description. Blah, blah, blah.” Kind of interested however they phrased it. I thought, “This is good.” Apparently, this is worldwide, I’ll say, IT consulting firm. Not having heard of them was probably a good thing because I wasn’t trying to impress them. It’s like, well, look at me and say, and it was only
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afterwards that I thought, “Okay, all these countries in or around the United States,” and I’m thinking, “Okay.” I wasn’t-
Yeah. You were not intimidated by them because you didn’t really know [crosstalk 00:31:29].
No. It would be like saying you never heard of Google, I suppose.
Yeah.
That would be analogy for that. It’s like, [inaudible 00:31:35]. Okay when you find out. Then, I’m just going to take you through some of the interviews, because I think this will help people. First one again, that was just as checklist. Second one was, I guess his boss was five minutes to say, “Oh, yes.” The person didn’t say this but that’s what I got from this, “Yes, you can hold a conversation. You’re going to talk with this first manager.” When you’re, I talked to these two managers and family was saying, this was two back to back interviews one day, and then another day, and the family was saying, “Sounds like you’re just having a conversation with these two women,” because it was two managers. I’m like, “Yeah, Ma. That’s what an interview is supposed to be.”
That’s what it is.
That’s what it’s supposed to be, but if you weren’t paying attention to what was being said, right, it just sounded like chitchat in terms of what it was and that’s another thing it dawned on me later on, I was like, “Well, yeah, that’s what I could see if you’re not paying attention to what’s being said,” even though the questions themselves were a lot of them were just HR type things.
Another point I wanted to bring up, if you’re in the right state, and they ask you a question you’ve never been asked before, instead of fumbling, I tell the person, and I thought, “Okay, well, I’ve never been asked this before,” actually, I’m not going to lie about it to them. I’m not going to sit there in silence. I’m sort of thinking aloud and I tell this one manager, “I’m just thinking aloud here about this, that are the same.” Then, I just sort of finally come up with an answer for something I had read in a book many years ago. I thought, “Do you think it’d be appropriate if I mentioned what the question was?” I don’t know.
Yeah, go ahead.
Okay. The person asked me, “What’s your leadership style?” I’m thinking, okay, I’m telling this.
You’ve never been asked before, don’t have any idea, haven’t thought of [crosstalk 00:33:31].
It was like crickets.
Yeah.
I’m trying to think, crickets, but I thought, okay, Frank, I’m sure you’ll think of something but of course… I started talking about being a good leader, being nice to people and helping people do their job. It hit me. Actually, this is a good book for anybody not just looking for a job, it was a book called The Magic of Thinking Big. It was published in the 1950s.
Yeah. I know it.
Are you familiar with it?
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
In terms of the salaries, that has to be updated, but everything else is good. There was a situation where this person was being promoted to sales manager. There’s a point to this, so just bear with me, was being promoted to sales manager, and the person was just worried that everybody was older than them. They were asking the author of the book, and they said, “Everybody’s 20 years old, what am I supposed to do?” The person said, and this has hit me during the interview, “Act like a team captain. “Show respect for people.”
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Then, I said that during the interview but the important thing was I was sort of in a state to at least think about it, where what would be an appropriate answer, what an accurate answer, and I said that, the manager pauses for a second, and she says, “Oh, I like that.” Okay, this is good.
This is because and this is because you had the thought, “Oh, Frank, you’ll think of something.”
Right. That’s pretty much what it was.
You believed that, right? Then, you did. That’s what it does, right? But most people will do is they’ll be like, “Oh no. I don’t know. What if I don’t get this right? What if I don’t have an answer?” Then, they go start searching for something and then they just blab something and then they’re not happy with their answer.
Good point.
Your thought was, “Oh, Frank, you’ll think of something.” You always do, right? Kind of playing with yourself kind of.
Right. It was more of a, and I’m dating myself now, it’s sort of going through your mental Rolodex.
Yeah, exactly.
The expression going through your mental Rolodex here.
Totally.
I’m just going to-
But the first thing that has to come up, the first thing that comes up in that mental Rolodex is the most important thing…
You’ll think of something.
… which was that for you. Yeah, yeah but for most people, that’s not what it is. People listening, when you don’t get the answer or you’re not proud of the answer, you’re not happy when you have to come up with something on the spot, it’s because you didn’t believe you’re going to think of something, even if you didn’t know.
Thank you, Natalie. I confess, I haven’t thought… When I was thinking about this later on, believing I could get an answer. I was like, “Okay,” if I could think of something. I was like, “Oh yeah, [inaudible 00:35:57] because I believe I could do it.
Yes, exactly. Then, you have your mental Rolodex of those memories of like yeah, yeah.
They’re good memories and just totally-
If we ask that question, it’s not a hard question. It’s like, you don’t have to even answer it.
No, no.
You don’t have to answer it super well. You just have to convey that you’re a person who is good to work with, like respect to other people. Be nice to other people.
Right. I was trying to think of just… I mean, I wasn’t saying what was bad, but I just wasn’t thrilled with the answer, even though it was still like, “Okay,” and I just made a joke to the manager, I said, “You know what? I’m just thinking aloud here. Just bear with me one moment here.” Another thing too just hit me during interviews, obviously, you don’t want to be totally verbose, and you want to keep people engaged. When people would ask me, “Tell me about yourself,” and I would mention summary, degree, accomplishments.” Before accomplishments, and an HR professional actually loaded me on this to say, “Okay, at this point, can I tell you some accomplishments that I’m really proud of?”
Of course, you’re going to say yes but I just remember thinking afterwards, the HR person I had worked with, actually said, “That’s a good way to put it by not being too verbose of things.” It just came out
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automatically. It came out automatically when I said, “Yeah, I was later for my last job, but this is what I’ve been able to do.” That just came out automatically is because I had heard that someplace about wanting to focus on and I even said that, “Gosh, I think even during this interview to focus on something positive.”
Yeah, you said at the very beginning, and just how you said it just now it’s like, a lot of people think being laid off is like a big problem, a big heavy thing that they’re going to have to justify and explain. Just the way that you said it just then was, “Yeah, I was laid off but let me tell you about, let me tell you about all the great things that I did.” Your energy comes through there. Then, I’m not even thinking about you being laid off anymore.
Right [crosstalk 00:38:03]. That’s totally [crosstalk 00:38:07].
Oh cool. [crosstalk 00:38:07] what you learned.
Right, that was totally, I mean, granted is on the resume but if you just elaborate on what was there?
Yeah, yeah. No, that’s great. I’m glad you said it. You’re just so candid about it. Because it’s like, that’s what we need to do. I will tell people, you just need to not feel like it’s a big deal but you just [crosstalk 00:38:21] example there.
Again, it’s probably the super old generation would think. It’s like, “Oh, that’s a stigma.” No, it’s not a stigma. “You know what it is? You have no control over that. You have absolutely no control over that. You can’t control everything. That’s one thing I eventually figured out.
Yeah, yeah.
You can’t control it. There was nothing, you could do it.
It wasn’t good or bad or anything. It was something that happens.
It was something that happened, and that’s fine and that’s okay. Also, another thing I wanted to share during that interview very specifically, it applies to the technical fields, but I think it can apply to almost any interview, two separate female managers, and a lot of it ended up being idle chit chat about how we both did like tech support. I remember one of them. We were there for like five minutes and about our trials and tribulations and if you ever dealt with the general public, I can assure you, it is a rather interesting experience.
Oh, yeah. You’ll never know what you’re going to get.
Right, exactly. Look who we’re talking to. The second one was on leave. It just took a little longer. Then, the recruiter I’m working with, the internal recruiter actually, not the initial recruiter but their person’s boss saying, “Okay, I get you this other [inaudible 00:39:37]. All right, fine. It’s another Zoom meeting. Now, the two manager meetings, they were just like, you can see the person. This last one, they didn’t turn their camera on and of course, you cannot read body language. You have no idea if what you’re saying is connected or not [crosstalk 00:39:57].
Yeah, yeah. Totally.
I get this one. I’m like, “Oh, joy.” I thought, “Well, no, no, that’s silly. I’m just, continue, continue on.” That was just 15 minutes of purely technical stuff. Now, with that, and I guess it doesn’t matter, and if you get questions, these are 15 minutes of define this, define that. Okay, so I define this and then I explained how I used it on the job, define that, I explained how I use it on the job, and that explaining how you use it on the job, I thought. I remember hearing that many years ago and fortunately, it just intuitively came out.
Yeah. They didn’t ask you? They didn’t ask you to explain that? It was just like [crosstalk 00:40:39].
No, no. I just said it…
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Yeah.
… because I thought it would make a little more sense to say that…
Yeah, totally.
… I truly [crosstalk 00:40:44].
Basically, like giving examples even [crosstalk 00:40:46].
Giving examples of what it was, give this, give that and this was 15 minutes. It wasn’t grilling, but it was just strictly define this and define that because at this point, this is already one, two, three, four, fifth interview and they just, I guess, wanted, and of course, he figured, okay, the other interviews they already had done whatever idle chit chat. Matter-of-fact, I was told later on with the interview process, they figure, okay, they figure your technical skills. They finally want to know if you can hold the conversation because it’s consulting, I thought, “Well, that’s interesting.”
I mean, again, this was sort of last one was still 15 minutes of purely technical questions, but it was still done in a friendly tone. I’m trying to answer these things. I’m like, I have my camera on. The other person doesn’t have. I have no idea if they’re liking the answers, not liking the answers. I think-
In that time, all you can do is like your own answers, right?
Right. That’s it. That’s all you can do. I’m thinking to myself, I said, “You know what, Frank, you gave the good… You knew they were good answers.” I mean, I did get a few good, but it was more of non-emotional, good or non-emotional [crosstalk 00:41:57].
Totally.
Of course, you can’t see.
It is very stoic, I have no idea.
It’s very stoic. I’m thinking, I have no idea. I’m thinking, “Oh, great. Now what?” I said, “No, no. This is crazy, Frank. Just answer this any questions.” I was just asking questions about the company and about promotions, and so on and so forth.
Yeah. That’s something…
That was 15 minutes of that.
… a lot of people go through too. They’re like, “Well, I didn’t know. They weren’t giving me any feedback. They weren’t even nodding yes. They weren’t event saying anything.” Like, not even having the camera there. It’s like, at that point, that is a moment where you get to have the opportunity to give yourself validation because what else are you going to do?
I would not have called it at the time but that would have been it. That would be an accurate statement. Even that believing that I could come up with the answer, it’s like, when you said to me, it’s like, “Of course, you believe that you’ll think of something.”
Yes.
Yeah. That’s right. I never thought of that way. That’s why we’re here.
Again, to [crosstalk 00:42:50] what somebody else might have done in that situation was they let their brain go, because it’s about the voices in your head that you’re listening to in those moments, right? That’s about right. There’s going to be a voice that’s like, “Oh, maybe they didn’t like the answer. Maybe you’re blowing this. Maybe this is terrible. Oh, no.” Those thoughts will make you deteriorate your answers versus if you have the thoughts of like, “Yeah, just keep going. You know your stuff.” I don’t know what they’re doing on that side but I know these answers and I know, I’m answering them correctly.
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I know I’m answering them great. I know I’m giving great examples of it.
Exactly, yeah, yeah. Then, you’re going to have the momentum to continue that on, versus where a lot of people go, which is like, “Oh, no. I don’t know that. Uh oh. What now?” Then, the interviewer goes down.
I have felt that. No, I don’t lie. I’ve also been in the past, and it bears repeating about overpreparing, because when you over prepare, you get yourself totally in a stuck state. As a matter-of-fact, I was starting to do this with this and I said, “Come on, Frank, we’re going to do it. Prepare with this.” [inaudible 00:43:51]. You’re not going to do that.
Yeah.
I stopped.
You don’t need to, right?
You need to.
You couldn’t have ever prepared for the things they were going to give you.
No, no, no. It wasn’t. I mean, because of a few interviews, I had a sense of what type of technical questions I was going to be asked but even with that, it was being able to just to say effortlessly, and when you’re over prepare, as I mentioned earlier, you already have the story memorized.
Yeah.
You don’t have to really think about it. Also, one thing also with your course that was very helpful is with your resume and again, people will see that when they take a look at it, getting rid of the summary section. My resume went from six pages to three pages through at that time monster.com to rewrite with all the right buzzwords and things about the job that I wanted and then to two and a half pages because of getting rid of the summary section.
Yeah.
That was really helpful.
Nice. Awesome.
That was ice. Then, putting the accomplishments at the beginning there, which was, actually when I’m looking at this, [inaudible 00:44:59] and you don’t realize yourself about certain things you had accomplished. You realize, you are a valuable person…
Yeah.
… with doing this and it was funny, even with the LinkedIn profile, because other point I wanted to say, sure, you can have all the right buzzwords and you can even get interviews without necessarily applying for the job, but you still have to pass the test, so to speak.
Yeah, exactly.
You still have to pass the real test. I didn’t want anyone to say, “Well, this guy get interviews ahead of time. That’s true but again, you still have to go through it. You may not have had to apply for the job because of what I do, it’s a high demand thing but really, the important thing is, it’s certainly getting through the process. For any folks, really, the…
I think the way that you approached it…
… being genuine and authentic.
… the way that you approached the process was really key here and you’ve illustrated it really well about [crosstalk 00:45:56] gone through.
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Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
Before we run out of time, there’s a few things I wanted to ask you…
Sure, ask away, [crosstalk 00:46:04].
… before we have to end it but what about your new role? You’ve been in your new role for how long? I want to hear a little bit about what that was like right now?
November 8th and being a big company, there was a lot of corporate training I had to do. Then, I’m doing this one for another big company, that was their consulting clients. Then, there was more training. I’m still waiting on your laptop, which I thought was rather strange but working from home, even though the client is totally in another state, but I thought that was kind of cool.
Yeah. You started the course in November, right or did you sign up in September and then you got [crosstalk 00:46:41] November?
This past September, I was looking at emails at this past September. I was out of work from Friday. August 13th, you can’t forget that to I had gotten the job offer for the job that I currently have was October 20th, a little over two months. They’re actually pretty quick about it, which is something you brought up in one of your comments on LinkedIn about were they serious or not. They started, I remember, October 5th to October 23, totally serious. At least, they were quick about it.
Wow. Made decisions quickly.
Make decisions quickly unlike another interview I was on, which I already had this job, but I thought I’d go on in anyway. I thought you never know but I’m thinking, no, you’re not serious about that because you’re going to wait on it and then when I got the second interview, it was like a month and a half later. I’m like, “Come on people. No, no, no.”
Yeah, [crosstalk 00:47:31].
It was the company that I had left. Then, I was thinking of coming back but I just thought that economics is crazy. We’re just basically working from home. It’s always, weird doing the Zoom meetings, but it is what it is but I’m just kind of thinking-
In terms of the work and what you get to do…
Oh, yeah, exactly.
… is it in line with what you want?
It is in line with it. Matter-of-fact, I just approved that someone had done this one documentation of the process. I’m like, “You know what? I don’t like the way this looks.” I asked the project manager, “Can I fix this?” “Yes.” Just this morning, I had gotten some kudos on what I was doing.
Your Zona genius comes to life. This is how we know. It’s a good fit for you. Yeah.
Right, exactly.
You see the process that’s not learned, not like could be improved and you got excited about it.
I thought, you know what, well, I also had more [inaudible 00:48:24], because I’m so into my computer but I thought, “You know what, why not just do this?”
Yeah.
Help the client and a matter of fact, that’s a lot of if it wasn’t my last job too, even though I was paid just nothing to do it but I didn’t focus on the fact that I wasn’t paid nothing, I wanted to focus on the fact that have you learned something.
Where were you being paid before in the income bracket and now at 100k? What was the jump?
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I’m just saying this because it just, that one was 62K American dollars to 100. Well, again, that was just an underpayment anyway.
Yeah.
Often, when I was doing that, but again, I focus on the fact, I said, “Okay, I’m not going to be here forever but at least learn what you can learn.” It was from 60 to 100K and I always had somewhere in my head and I forgot that about this for many years but now I always about wanting to make 100k. I’ve totally forgotten about it. I was thinking about it again. I said, “You know, Frank, you’re not getting any younger.” I said, “This is your time to shine. You just have to do this.”
Yeah. Just the fact that huge jumps like that can be made.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you didn’t [crosstalk 00:49:34].
That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought about it.
Six months of experience and then [crosstalk 00:49:37].
This particular one, yes. Well, they’re able to, even though I’ve done so much of my other jobs, but this was truly, absolute six months this genuine of this one experience, but now that’s very true but I also wanted to make a statement. I also wanted to keep score. Also, this is something that is never in a lot of books, but I read this one book, sometimes wanting to show them, sometimes it’s revenge, just wanting to show them.
The best revenge is living well.
That’s right. I forgot about it.
I love that saying.
Oh, I forgot about that. Right. That’s right. Sometimes it just is and just one example in a book where, I know the names won’t mean anything to you but for older folks, they mean something here, there was a comedy team that apparently and this is way before my time in the 1950s, called Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis, one was a singer and one was a comedian. Then, they broke up. People thought, “Oh, Jerry Lewis, the funny man will be more successful,” but Dean Martin was more successful because he could actually sing and he had his own show.
Then, he’s in an interview and then he says, “Well, I guess I showed the fact that nobody would think that.” Sometimes it’s just wanting to show them because they’re thinking about various naysayers over the years. I know there’s one last thing I wanted to say here before we end this, so pardon me here. I’m just looking away because I just wanted to read this. Yesterday, I was in LinkedIn. Really, some of it is just wanting to show them or proving it yourself too.
To add to that, it’s like using that, using naysayers as fuel…
Yeah.
… you know you have like, yeah. I’ve heard that from a lot of really successful people. They’re like, “Oh, these people thought I couldn’t do it. I took all that energy, and I used it to go do it, right?”
[crosstalk 00:51:21] too.
Yeah.
What do we mean you transferred from a community college? Well, I showed them.
Yeah. Yeah. Do you think the energy in a good way channeling it for your own good?
It’s a good point. Right, right. Exactly. I was literally on LinkedIn yesterday and I thought, “You know what? I need to mention this.” I’ll leave it in because I was going to say this at the beginning. I realized
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now it’s more appropriate now. This was on following Sean Robinson, who’s a host of various reality TV shows here. This was on there. I’m just going to look at it and read it because it’s just so loud.
Go ahead. Yeah.
There is a past version of you that is so proud of how far you’ve come. That seriously just gave me pause.
Oh, my God. Yeah. We don’t think about that past version of us ever. We’re just like [crosstalk 00:52:12].
No, no, you’re right.
We need to do better. We need-
Gee, Natalie, you’re right.
Just even bringing that into perspective, you get to have that moment of like, I am, like, what I’m doing is really working for me. I have come a long way.
Thinking of, I went to college with a lot of bright kids and I was one of the few people that had to pay for it but I showed them. Again, with part of the revenge thing, but again, not the most, I don’t know if it was the most healthy way to do it but the naysayers but you’d be correct, some of it is the naysayers too and wanting to-
The way to know it’s like, it gives you the feeling of like, it sounds like determination, right or like…
Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.
… it gives you that fuel that you need to go do the things you need to do. That’s how we know that it works for you and that it’s the way for you to do it. Yeah, no one likes to [crosstalk 00:53:08].
I was working in going to college, I would not put it that way but you certainly expressed it accurately enough about how it’s working for you. I know what another thing I thought of another great quote, the singer Billy Joel. I think he’s pretty much worldwide known at this point.
I love Billy Joel.
Good, then you know the song James?
Yeah, I think so.
It was basically this person had gone to barely become a doctor, but what his parents wanted him to do now what he wanted. He says, “Do what’s best for you. If you don’t do that,” “Do what’s best for you, if you don’t do that, if you don’t do what’s good for you, then you’re not good for anyone.”
Yeah, that’s a really good one.
Again, even working through college with naysayers.
That’s for all the people pleasers out there.
Is that what it is? I never… I was never one for that.
Well, that’s good.
Sometimes anyway.
You live by different principles, right? But yeah, a lot of people that I work with are, they don’t want to disappoint people. They want to do things… They do things for other people kind of without really knowing it, and then end up putting themselves last. That was something that will speak to them for sure.
Yeah, you can’t do that but I remember with this, where the heck with you, I’m doing this anyway but really the, but the one limiting belief about being genuine and authentic and not being professional, I
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just want to tell people, I was like, “No, no, no. Just be yourself and be nice and all the good stuff.” That doesn’t serve you.
Totally, yeah.
That does not serve you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for sharing.
Thank you.
Such a fun interview.
This was definitely fun. I didn’t realize how much so. I even had some things I wanted to talk about, that’s why I was looking toward the side there but.
Yeah, no problem.
Just thing that I wanted to say and I said, no I definitely said everything. No, this was terrific. I had-
You’re going to help a lot, a lot of people. You have no idea.
I certainly hope so. Well, you have said in LinkedIn yesterday, it’s like, “I’m talking to someone who had graduated the course. Are you next?” I thought, “What would you ask them if you could?’ On that note, if they want to, if there were some questions that you want me to answer that someone has to ask…
Yeah.
… I won’t mind.
Awesome. Well, we have a private LinkedIn community for those of you listening inside the program.
That’s right. If they want to ask, and say ask and say, “Hey, Frank, do you mind answering this question for me?”
Yeah.
Tell them, that’s for so far anyone who’s listening to this, if you want to hit me on the link, the private LinkedIn actually, sent me more than one invite, Natalie, the private LinkedIn one if you want to ask the question, feel free…
Amazing. Yeah.
… if I can answer it.
Once you’re in, you’re in. It’s lifetime access. Everybody who’s in now, ready, and everybody who joins afterwards will have the opportunity to [crosstalk 00:56:05].
Go out if they can… If they want to ask the question in there, that’s good if I can answer it, of course, but I will certainly do.
We’ll figure something out.
Right, exactly, right.
Amazing. Okay, Frank.
Thank you, Natalie.
Well, again, such a blast having you.
Thank you. Thank you.
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I’ll talk to you soon. If I were to sum it up, I would say the most common thing people come to me with is I’m going on interview after interview after interview and I’m not getting the offer. What am I doing wrong? I’ve put together a freebie where you can get this download completely free. It has the eight reasons that this is happening. I break down each reason very specifically and how to fix it. To grab that download, the link is in the show notes. You can click on that link. You just have to enter your information. It’s called the Eight Reasons You’re Not Getting Hired and I will help you figure that out. I will see you in the freebie. Okay, talk to you soon.