Natalie Fisher: Hello, hello! Welcome! We are here on the podcast, and I have a very special guest with me, my client Jessica. I’m so excited for her to share about her journey and experience. Jessica, why don’t you start out by introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about you?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Hey, Natalie! Well, thank you for having me as well. I’m really excited to do this interview.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Well, my name is Jessica Gutierrez. I’m an ecologist who loves, like, connecting people with nature and protecting biodiversity. I was the first in my family to attend college and graduate school, and I’ve worked a range of research projects in various ecosystems, and…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: When I began this program, I was seeking from, like, this transition from lab work and field work to just more of a public-facing conservation work.

 

Natalie Fisher: Amazing! Well, I’m excited to unpack everything that you have experienced in the last few months since we met.

 

Natalie Fisher: So, great job explaining your background, very good, succinct answer there, thank you very much. So, how, the challenges that you experienced before you came and joined the program, and kind of what made you seek out help, do you want to talk about that a little bit?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, and so some of it was external and personal. And so, due to lack of funding, like, in conservation and, like, ecology in general, especially today, it… I kind of fell into the statistic where you’re overworked and underpaid.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And again, it’s… some of that is external. And I kind of just accepted that as my truth in my s. And I was just like that, it is what it is.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: But I… so I found myself, like, taking on more responsibility, than peers who were, like, either more senior or even equal to me.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And this led me feeling to more, like, resentment and burnout, and this was constantly happening in the roles that I was getting into. And I just, like, knew I was the common denominator, and, like, something had to change.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And I think when I finally made that step was when I asked for a promotion.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And I felt like I was already doing above and beyond my job description, and then the supervisor told me, well, I need to be doing more responsibility if I’m gonna have that promotion.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And that just didn’t sit right with me, and so I started listening to more of your podcasts and trying to get myself into this mental state that I can achieve what I want. And that life exists out there.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, amazing, and I think everything you just said, people are going to resonate with that so much, because I feel like what you just articulated, what a lot of people have either experienced or are experiencing.

 

Natalie Fisher: So, how did you, kind of, look at those challenges then, and how do you see them now? And we’ll unpack, kind of, what your results have been, and where, like, with the exciting stuff coming up for you, but how do you see those challenges differently now than when you started?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: So the… the challenges, in terms of a job hunt.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: like, that is still scary to me, but it… now I know…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: that, like, the… like, if I don’t give up on myself, I know I can achieve and see something through. I’ve done difficult things before, and I know my brain hates to be in the uncertainty, but I think some of the tools that you’ve provided me has really helped me be like, okay.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I can have this anxiety, or I can have the optimism. Both are fantasies, like you’ve said, they’re both fantasies, and so which one do I want to focus my energy on?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And so, really trying to push for focusing my energy on the not-so-scary stuff. And that’s hard for, like, humans, I think. Yeah, absolutely. You want to panic, and you want to pay attention to what you think is danger.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: Exactly, and I, I’ve,

 

Natalie Fisher: a lot of people… I’ve been seeing people say things like, oh, but it’s not that easy, like, I’m just not wired that way. And it’s true, humans are just not wired to focus on the positive, or what could happen, or the possibility, right? We’re not wired that way, so we have to work a little harder to wire ourselves that way, but as you’ve shown, it’s possible, and then when you are able to do that.

 

Natalie Fisher: go through that discomfort and do that, then you’re able to achieve a lot more than if you just kind of settled for the lowest thing that… the first lowest thing that came along.

 

Natalie Fisher: So, what is… what was the biggest fear you had to overcome to say yes, to, like, invest in yourself, start… sign up for the program, kind of get… get into something new? What was the biggest fear you’d say you had to overcome?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I guess the two biggest fears was financial…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Like, I was so afraid of spending the money to invest in myself, and like, maybe it didn’t help, and…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I know for a fact, like, financial security is a big, like, trigger for me, and, like, once I feel that I’m not, like, I’m on rocky grounds, it can be very stressful.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And then, it was the, like, oh man, this is gonna take a long time, and this is gonna be awful, because I’ve heard of friends who had similar journeys, it took them, like, months to a year, and I was just dreading how much work this was gonna take, and how difficult it was gonna be.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And then getting back to, like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I’m kind of a person who doesn’t necessarily celebrate my wins in increments at all. It’s like, I have to get there, and even when I get there, I don’t always celebrate, and so my brain is like, can we not do the hard thing? Just because, like, we’re not gonna, you know, we’re gonna get there and we’re not gonna be happy anyway, like, what’s the point?

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: So, it’s something that I’m still working on, for sure, but the program has really let me see that.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: To help me sustain this.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, amazing! So, those fears that you mentioned, I think everybody has those same fears, and it’s all… it all comes with that uncertainty, like, I feel like it… like, financial is a big trigger for a lot of people, and so is, like, just uncertainty in general. Like, it’s financial uncertainty, it’s, like, the future uncertainty, it’s like, I don’t know what’s gonna happen. So it’s like, it was all just kind of tolerating that uncertainty and moving through it with grace and taking the next step.

 

Natalie Fisher: And I know that you did implement, like, very specifically through the program, because you were sharing your wins along the way, which I really appreciated you doing, because you… maybe you knew, you’re like, oh, if I just… if I write them down, or I put them in the wins thread, like, that will… that will kind of solidify that these.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: happening. But yeah, I mean, I like to do the culture of celebration for that reason, because I know a lot of people are like you, and they’re not, like, wired to celebrate their wins.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, so what… was it… would you say was worth… what would you say was most worth the time, and, like, it didn’t take you that long, and it… like, you… when you came in, you said, it’s gonna take me so long, it’s gonna be so much work. What do you think, now looking back, because now you’re on the other side, you’ve achieved it.

 

Natalie Fisher: Which we’ll talk about in more detail, but what would you say now to your past self, who was like, oh, it’s gonna take so long, and it’s gonna be so much work?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: It…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, so I think kind of like how I said it before, where, hey, just don’t give up on yourself, like, it’s easy to do so, but, you know, your future’s worth it, and…

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: It’s gonna be uncomfortable, but we’re gonna get through it, and…

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, future self probably wouldn’t… or, sorry, past self would have probably not believed future self, but…

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: you know, just trying… at least trying to believe that it’s gonna get there, and that it’s working, it’s working, because it did. It is working. And I… you know, and even just, like, understanding that… I mean, some people do land their, like, perfect, perfect role for them.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: But also understanding that, like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Perfection doesn’t always exist, and what are you most happy with, and what are your non-negotiables, too?

 

Natalie Fisher: Exactly.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: For me, at least. I was kind of asking for a lot… not a lot, honestly. It’s not a lot. But I wanted to move states, which is a big challenge. I wanted a certain salary, which is, you know, if you look at the job boards for conservation, isn’t… they’re not as frequent, I guess.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And so there was also these other points that I just wanted to hit, and I basically did. I did hit all of them.

 

Natalie Fisher: And, like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I don’t know, it’s still gonna be stressful no matter what. Like, now I have to make a big move out of state, and like…

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: you’re being… just be comfortable with this… these kinds of, I don’t know, discomforts. Yeah. It’s life, it’s really life, and…

 

Natalie Fisher: Totally.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Get through it, just get through it.

 

Natalie Fisher: got me through a lot of that is the concept of -is, like, everything’s gonna be, like, % great and % not great.

 

Natalie Fisher: just learn to, like… and I feel like you kind of elevate in… in better quality -when you… as you progress, but… but yeah, you nailed it. It is always just gonna be…

 

Natalie Fisher: the things… you’re always gonna have new problems that you’re dealing with, but… but that’s amazing to hear. So you hit most of your boxes, is what you said in your email, but you… but I’m excited to ask you more about what… what actually…

 

Natalie Fisher: what you actually landed. Because, yeah, and something you mentioned about the job boards, like, you’ll see stuff on the job boards that’s, like, not very frequent postings, really low-paying postings.

 

Natalie Fisher: And then your brain starts to have thoughts about that, right? So, could you tell us what your thoughts were in the beginning?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: oh yeah, like, pattern recognition is a thing with humans, and so you’re… I keep looking at, like, K offered jobs, and, like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: You know, that’s good salary for some people, but as inflation and cost of living just kept increasing.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And that was the salary that I had. I was like.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: This is difficult to live off of.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And so, I was like, I can’t just keep going to these, like, low-paying positions, and so I really did fight the urge to want to just, like, apply to something.

 

Natalie Fisher: Easy, and put my energy there. Yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, and that’s really important that you recognize that, because that is, like, that is an energy stealer for something that isn’t even gonna give you barely above living wage, and it’s… it’s not… in the end, it’s like, that’s not what you’re working for. Like, if we work for money, like, we… it’s okay to say we work for money, it’s like, if we’re gonna get a job, it better pay us.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Right.

 

Natalie Fisher: Or pay us a meaningful amount, right? Yeah. Or at least more than, like, because, yeah, more than what you had before, like, because you left for a reason, you wanted to.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Right.

 

Natalie Fisher: And, like, the… yeah, so it’s really important, I think, because I think people get stuck in that whole, like, well, I just have to pay bills, and, like, that’s the only important thing right now. And then that’s what they focus on, and they get something that will just pay their bills, and then it’s like, okay, but now what? Right?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Right.

 

Natalie Fisher: of energy, and you’re resentful, and go back into the same burnout cycle and resentful cycle that you did before, and then, yeah, it has to end at some point if you want to really advance. So, your story kind of shows, like, what it… like, what someone has to think in order to actually make that happen.

 

Natalie Fisher: So, what were some of the main shifts, you think, the key moments that kind of gave you insight into how to move forward?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And there was something that you mentioned, too, before, where you were like, you’re gonna pay your bills anyway. Like, you’re resourceful, you’re here now, like, you’re paying… and it’s true, I did get, like, I also landed a part-time job while I was going through my search, and…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: That helped pay my bills, like, you know, I was doing both, and…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I don’t know, it’s possible, and like, sometimes just hearing it, like, you’re gonna do it anyway, I’m like, oh yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: Actually, that’s right.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I am gonna do that.

 

Natalie Fisher: Never hasn’t been true, right?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Right.

 

Natalie Fisher: So if we’re looking for evidence of something, we can usually point to the past and say, I have always paid my bills. Yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: Awesome.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: love.

 

Natalie Fisher: Any other key shifts?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Oh, yeah, so, like, there are a few. And so, yeah, again, one of the main ones was, like, the anxiety and optimism about the future. They’re both, like, grounded in fantasy, and so it hasn’t happened yet. What do I wanna… what do I wanna focus on?

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Your models, so training myself to have more of an alternative thought process.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: With that thought model that you introduced, and I think that tool really helped, because I’m like, okay, this thought process doesn’t motivate me. Can we get to a more neutral or a more positive thought process that will motivate me?

 

Natalie Fisher: Yes.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: And the last but not least, your cocktail party.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And I think that’s… honestly, that is what helped land the two positions that I ended up getting, both the part-time and then the full-time at the end there.

 

Natalie Fisher: Fantastic. Yeah, and you implemented, like, a lot of people, it blows my mind sometimes, people will come into my program and they won’t, like, they won’t actually implement, but so you were implementing right away, you were posting in there, like, I got an interview, I reached out, I did these things, and, like, you were seeing those things happen really quickly, so…

 

Natalie Fisher: So yeah, you’re a good example of somebody who just came in, implemented, made it work.

 

Natalie Fisher: And then the don’t give up on yourself thought was… was there, so it just… you just kept making it… kept taking action until it worked. So, what do you think you did, like.

 

Natalie Fisher: What do you think?

 

Natalie Fisher: you did to make the program successful for you, besides implementing, were there any specific thoughts that, like you said, in the model, you’re like, okay, how can we get to a place where I can be motivated, or I can feel… was there anything that you can think of that specifically made you successful using the program and the material? Any thoughts?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Paying attention to my feelings, I think, was a big one while going through the cocktail party. At first, I was, like, very hesitant. I don’t want to network. I really hated networking, and that thought of, like, a transactional…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I don’t know, like… interaction with someone, and so…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: just kind of shifting my thought and being like, you know, if something inspires me, I’m gonna, like, shout out and let that person know, and if it leads to a conversation, great. If it doesn’t, it is what it is. Like, my compliment was genuine. Yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And, yeah, so that was, like, one of those things of just, like, paying attention to my feelings and trying to be inspired, and so that way, when I did try to speak to someone, it was coming from, like, an authentic place, and I really value that, and so that’s what I did.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And then… I guess the other thing, too, is, like…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I was, you know, I was getting some interviews, and obviously didn’t get all of those offers. And then I went to coaching, and I’m like, I know I’m going to my interview with a bad, like, self-esteem, and thinking it’s not gonna happen again, and then you were just like, well, if you were dating someone… if you were dating, and like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: You know, you weren’t working with other people, do you… are you gonna think that’s the same thing with this other person?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: But the new person, like, is that grounded in reality? I’m like, no, that’s not. It’s different people, different organizations, different wants.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And so…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: yeah, I tend to kind of look at things in black and white, or like, again, that pattern recognition, and just being like, oh, this must be the truth if it’s happened before.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then being able to catch that stuff and see, oh, I have… that’s not true.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: And being able to, like, open up back into possibility, yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yes, yeah, trying to catch myself every time I slide back into that anxiety and unmotivated, unhelpful thinking.

 

Natalie Fisher: Hmm.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And it’s tricky, like, I’m still gaining those muscles, I’m not…

 

Natalie Fisher: Hmm, yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: fully there yet.

 

Natalie Fisher: We all will be. We’ll all still have a negative thought till the day we die. So what will you use, moving forward, going into your new role? What do you think you’ll use as far as the tools go, and what you’ve learned so far?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, I think my next steps, would be to…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: look more into the VCVC method that you provide.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And, again, I don’t want to repeat the, like, overworking myself, and building resentment, and which leads to burn… like, burnout. And I know I’m the common denominator, like, you’ve mentioned, and it clicked before, of, like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: you know, I’m instructing people how to treat me, and so…

 

Natalie Fisher: I’m letting people overwork me, or I’m overworking myself and letting people know that’s the normal, without the compensation. And so, I know I’m also…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Responsible for what is happening to me.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Even though… You know, people allowing that to happen as well, you know, from an organization standpoint.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: It is a two-way street, but, like, if I come in and I set my boundaries, or just, like, understand this is enough.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: This is enough work, this is, like…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I’m okay, and I’m valued, and I’m worth it, like, I know I need to… I need to work on that a little more. And so I’m hoping to, you know, grow a little more with this program.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, and having that self-awareness is the first step, being like, I’m not gonna let that happen again. That will put your focus in the right place.

 

Natalie Fisher: So, what did you… what would you say surprised you about the program, if anything?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: You know, I came in knowing that…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I have blind spots, because I, you know, I’m doing the… everything right, quote-unquote, like… Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: people are looking at my resumes, you know, I’m trying to have this perfect, application, and… or I’m trying the numbers game, and it’s still not working. So I’m like, okay, I have blind spots, and I was able to recognize it, but I just couldn’t see what the blind spots were.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And so I knew I needed to make an investment in myself, and the fact that your program is like, okay, you know, this is a lifetime program, and so I’m like, okay, money’s a little scary, but…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: you know, I am worth it, and I ended up getting, like, a $raise from my old position to now, and so, like, that’s a great investment if I’ve ever seen one.

 

Natalie Fisher: That’s a better investment than you’ll get anywhere in the stock market.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, yeah, and, like, I was doing some calculations based on, like, a promotion. If I stayed at my old job, even with the promotion and, like, increases and raises, it would still take me years.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And I got that within, like, or months.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: So, it’s a time saver, and… yeah, I didn’t realize how much of a time saver, and how much my brain would change.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And when I… and I can catch myself being like, alright, yeah, that’s a negative thought. Let’s start doing these little models again to, like… to just help me. I’m surprised how quickly I get to the… the logic side.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yes, you will start to automatically just have those models working in your favor once you catch them, so that’s amazing to hear.

 

Natalie Fisher: And how do you feel about the new role? Let’s talk about that. What are you most excited about?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Oh, I am super excited about the new role. So,

 

Jessica Gutierrez: it is a… basically, it’s a nursery inspector for the state, and so I’ll go around to, like, farms and businesses, just to make sure that there’s no invasive species and pests, kind of, on these plants, and so it is really, like, protecting

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Not only, like, our neighborhoods from these, like, invasive pests, but, like, farms in general, and as well as, like, on, like, the greater scale of, like, our ecosystems at… in that state level.

 

Natalie Fisher: Hmm.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: So it is, like, an impactful role, and I very much love forest ecosystems, and so being able to just be a small part in protecting that, I’m just very excited about.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, and it’s like what you wanted to… you wanted to get into the field doing some more stuff like that, right? That was your intention? Yeah. Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yes, exactly. Like, any way I can, like, protect biodiversity, and I know this is, like, that one little piece that I can contribute,

 

Jessica Gutierrez: In general, and so… and I’m also gonna be working a lot with, like, business owners, and so I think just, like, interacting with the public, and maybe having people think about things differently, like, yeah, it’s kind of a pain to have to look out for these things all the time, but it is… it is worth it.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Like, for your business in the long run, and for our ecosystem in the long run. Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And so hopefully getting people to have more of a positive note, and, like, thought process about that, I’m excited about. And yeah, I’ll be interacting with the public very often, and that’s another piece that I wanted as well.

 

Natalie Fisher: Amazing. Yeah, that does sound really exciting. So what, I guess you haven’t started yet, have you? When do you start?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: No, not yet. In January. Okay. So, yeah, early January, I’ll be starting, and yeah, but yeah, I haven’t started quite, quite yet.

 

Natalie Fisher: So, so you might be able to just answer this question as best as you can, but what will your life look like beginning in your new role? How will it look different?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Well,

 

Jessica Gutierrez: so I will be in a state that I will love, and well, I already love it, so I grew up in…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: the Great Lakes region, and so I’ll be pretty close to home, and so I’m very excited, and I grew up in, like, going to visiting the state often, since it’s a… it was basically a state away. And… yeah. I’m excited about the city, I’m excited to be close to home.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I’m hoping my life will…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: you know, I don’t know. I really don’t know what it’s gonna look like, but I’m hoping it’s gonna…

 

Natalie Fisher: answer the question, because you haven’t gotten there yet, but I remember when we were… when we first, started coaching together, you were nervous about, like, oh, where am I going to move to, or how… like, I know I want to move to somewhere that, you know, I feel safe and I like, and… and so this is great to hear that that’s all coming together.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, yeah, it seems like the place has, very similar values, according to what I hear from people who live there, and… or who have visited.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah. And you also had the added challenge of, like, applying for jobs in places where you weren’t physically there, like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yes.

 

Natalie Fisher: I didn’t… because that’s… that’s an, like, that’s an additional obstacle that…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Oh, yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: you had to overcome, because you were actually looking to move, and you knew you were going to be moving. So how did that… how did that go? Was that totally, like, obviously, it was fine, you didn’t have to, like…

 

Natalie Fisher: change your whole life around to go and interview, or maybe you did, I don’t know what happened there?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, I mean, I’m… I’m sure…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: it’s easier to just pick the candidate who’s local, but I was… I tried to be upfront and being like, hey, I… I am very excited to move, to X location, like, I’m willing to do it on my own dime, like, all of that because I’m…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Like, this position really excites me, and also the location really excites me, and that’s one of my goals to, to achieve.

 

Natalie Fisher: Awesome.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And so, kind of being upfront with that, but yeah, it was an obstacle for sure. There was a few people where it didn’t seem to matter in the interviews,

 

Jessica Gutierrez: But I know, like, talking to friends and things like that, they’ve… who have held interviews for other people, it is something that is discussed, that it can be an obstacle, because they will most likely want to just give it to the local candidate.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, and that’s something good to notice, because across the board.

 

Natalie Fisher: there’s gonna be different obstacles for different people listening, so this was one obstacle for you. Some other people will see their obstacles differently, so big ones are people think, oh, I have this big gap on my resume, or I have this, unconventional history, or I have… like, all these things that people could see as obstacles, and I think when you said, like, it matters to some people, it doesn’t matter to other people.

 

Natalie Fisher: That’s always going to be true across the board, and so anything is possible when you know that. Like, yeah, it’ll matter to some people, but not to everybody, and so you just need to find your people. So yeah, that’s good, that’s really good to hear. So what would you say to someone who is, like, on the fence about joining, about investing, about getting the help they need? What would you kind of advise them?

 

Natalie Fisher: From where you are now.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: My advice would be kind of just how I’ve mentioned before, if you’re… you think you’re doing everything right, like, polished resume, you know, you’ve applied to so many places, you’re putting a lot of energy, and you’re still not getting the results, then that is time to start investing in yourself, and you are worth it.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And again, like, You will get to your goal.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: But it doesn’t have to be so painful, and like, I think joining Natalie’s program, even with how scary the money was for me initially, it is an investment in yourself, and the thing that it’s a lifetime program, you’re, honestly, you’re not losing

 

Jessica Gutierrez: That much, like, in the long run.

 

Natalie Fisher: And you made your investment back, right?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Oh, yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: That’s my goal for everybody, is for them to make their investment back, and, like, talking to people like you is great, because you can show people, like, how you kind of thought to get the success, and how you thought to get the implementation and everything going, so you could create that result. So… so definitely…

 

Natalie Fisher: making the investment back is the top priority, really, but you made it back, like.

 

Natalie Fisher: what would that be? Five times? At least? Like, times. And then compounding over time, like, yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah. That’s the goal.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Oh, for sure. I, yeah, I would say…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: If you can really do it, do it.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: yeah, I honestly, I think it would have taken a lot longer, and I would have been a lot more upset and kind of miserable about the job process. Because it is hard out there right now. It, like, you know, I…

 

Natalie Fisher: posts.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I don’t have to pay attention to it all the time, in terms of, like, mass layoffs here and there, and…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Funding cuts here and there, but…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: you know, those things are happening, and I think I would have spiraled, and it would have been a very upsetting time, for me, and even the people around me who have to, like.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: suffer me, I guess, while I’m going through that.

 

Natalie Fisher: Well, thanks for saying that, because that’s my goal, is to make it less painful.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yes, and it’s uncomfortable. It’s gonna be uncomfortable, but you can get through it, and…

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Even…

 

Natalie Fisher: be uncomfortable either way, I feel like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Right.

 

Natalie Fisher: at least when you have a path and you know that, like, you have… I feel like you can have more certainty, at least in yourself, right? Like, I feel like what you were talking about, dealing with the uncertainty and accepting that, but also, like, you grounded yourself in certainty within yourself, so you were able to continue to see it through to the finish line, which is what’s required, really.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, yeah, I know…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: like, my partner and friends were like, oh yeah, you’re gonna get something, but I couldn’t believe it.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Well, I started doing this program.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Like, okay, I’m gonna try a little bit every week to try and work on believing that for myself.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, exactly, and until you believe it, it doesn’t matter, because everyone can tell you that, and it doesn’t matter. Yeah, and in the same way, it doesn’t matter if everyone else believes that, you know, the market is crap and everything else is bad, it doesn’t matter what other people believe, because really, it is only what you can get on board with, so…

 

Natalie Fisher: Very intentional work you did there, definitely paid off.

 

Natalie Fisher: So, how would you describe the program who doesn’t know anything about coaching, or doesn’t know what to expect? I think it’s important for people to know when they’re considering something. How would you describe it to someone who has no idea, like, what to expect?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, so I think I enjoy coaching a lot more, than I’ve… I’m someone who’s done therapy, because I value mental health, and like.

 

Natalie Fisher: Hmm.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Again, just trying to not be… just focus on the negative all the time.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And I never really got any of those kinds of, like, better results in my thought process than I did with coaching.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And, like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: It is in a form of… it’s a form of, like, counseling in a sense, but for specific needs, I would say.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yay!

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Coaching is?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And I think your methods and your, like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Not your methods, well, yeah, your methods and the tools that you provided were tangible, and like, you know, you kind of gave, like, here’s how you look at it, and then here’s more detail.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: on how… and you, like, provided all that detail, you provided a book, and then you can go back to it, and so the way that you provided resources was definitely…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I guess you could grasp it in various forms. You know, you could go to your classes, you can go to your workshops, to your coaching, and it’s just, like, all of these resources here, and you can kind of just pick

 

Jessica Gutierrez: What works for you the best?

 

Natalie Fisher: That’s exactly the thing, yeah. So, a lot of people think, oh, I have to go through all this stuff, I have to do everything, I have to attend every class, and like, you didn’t do that, and you got your result because you were approaching it that way. So that’s important, for people to know, too.

 

Natalie Fisher: Because people think they get into the student mentality a lot. They’re like, oh, I have to go through everything, but that’s the exact reason why I’ve provided it in so many different ways. Like, you can listen, you can watch, you can read, you can come and actually interact, so there’s really no way that you fail unless you literally just check out and don’t do it.

 

Natalie Fisher: So, thank you for sharing that, that’s great. I love… that’s why I love doing these interviews, because I get to hear it in your words, hear your experience, hear your feedback. So,

 

Natalie Fisher: you… the salary, you said you got $additional, and you were making… and I think when we… on one of our first calls, you were like, oh, I’m… like, I’m not seeing these ones, like, they’re all just, like, K, or, like, even, like, below, like…

 

Natalie Fisher: And you, like, your brain wanted to, like, go and apply for those, or… and we coached through it. So what would you tell somebody who’s in that situation right now, who’s just like, I just need to get anything, I just need to do…

 

Natalie Fisher: I just need to, like, frantically apply and just go for it. What would you tell… what would you tell them?

 

Natalie Fisher: If you were talking to a group of people in that situation.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Well, I very much understand, the need to pay the bills, so I… I understand where you’re coming from, and so if… I think…

 

Natalie Fisher: for me, and maybe for anyone else, I think the best strategy would be, like, okay, you know, get your part-time if you really need it, but I think investing your time.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: To find something and apply for things that are higher salary is going to pay off at the end.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: So smart. Keep going. It… I know, it’s…

 

Natalie Fisher: It’s uncomfortable, for sure.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: But it will pay off, and then…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: it’s something that you discussed as well. You’re gonna get into another low-paying job, and then feel that resentment, and feel like you need a change, and then you need to start all over again, and now you’re, what, maybe months behind, a year behind, on what you could have been doing at the time, you know, if you had a higher salary.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: Smart. Thank you. I needed to hear the words of wisdom in your words.

 

Natalie Fisher: I’m like, I feel like I keep trying to tell people these things, but sometimes they don’t land from me, sometimes they need to hear them from somebody else.

 

Natalie Fisher: So, yeah, what kinds… like, I think that’s basically all the questions I had, but I’ll just kind of make sure I got everything. The things you were trying before, you were… you mentioned you were just applying… walk us through, like, what you were doing before, and then what you started doing differently afterwards.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, so before, I would just kind of…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: find a job. I would, you know, still try and…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: stay, you know, have my, like… stay stubborn in my, I want this higher salary, so things that were, like, below…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: my current salary, I was like, no, we can’t keep doing this to ourselves. And so I would apply to things that are… were either, like, equal or more. That was kind of, like, my cutoff. And on anything I would see on the job boards, or…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: whatever, and so I was just kind of applying, trying to get my numbers up and kind of exhaust myself, and then I would go through breaks where I don’t want to, like, touch applications again, because it was so exhausting.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah. And so just kind of doing that, even having people, like, look at my resume and look at my applications, and thinking… or spending, like, a week on one application and making it perfect, quote-unquote, and then just to get ghosted, and so.

 

Natalie Fisher: Hmm.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: wasn’t really working as much. I did get two interviews from that, like, numbers game, but it didn’t end up working out at the end. I think I was offered something lower, like grand lower than my salary, or to grand lower than my salary, and

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I could have just said yes, but I was just like… something in me was like, no, do not do that.

 

Natalie Fisher: Was this before you… Okay.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, it was before I joined, and I was just like, no, don’t do that, like…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: like, the move, it just doesn’t make sense, because I was still, like, a move out of state and things like that.

 

Natalie Fisher: For sure, yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I was like, that just doesn’t make sense. I’m gonna spend all this money, to make less money.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, that’s crazy.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: seat.

 

Natalie Fisher: I’m so glad you realized that, yeah, that’s so good. So, and then after, because your job wasn’t even landed through… was it landed… it wasn’t landed through that process, was it? It was through the conversations and through the cocktail party, right?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yes, it was through the cocktail party, so, you know, I tried to make… I didn’t know this was… you could do this, so I tried to, like, give myself some momentum and start talking to friends first, who were in the conservation field. And so I was having these conversations with friends, and…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: It was, like, in July when I had a conversation with one of my best friends.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And she was just like, hey, you know, I really recommend this… my job, like, I love it, I love the people I work with, like, it… like, I’m very happy, and so you should just check it out, like, this opening that’s gonna happen at some point. She’s like, sometime in the fall. And so I was like, okay. And so, yeah, I, like, reached out to, the supervisor with my resume, and…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: you know, just… I wanted to have that… that cocktail conversation, but unfortunately, they, they had a lot of inspections and were very busy.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And… but I think they did review my resume, and were like, hey, if you’re interested, like, we would love for you to apply. And so, that went… you know, led to an interview.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And they checked my references, my references were great, and so I think that really kind of pushed.

 

Natalie Fisher: To finally landing that position.

 

Natalie Fisher: But yeah, it was, like, a conversation that happened in July, landed a position in, like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Late October.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: So things were working, even though I had no.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yes, exactly.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I had no idea that was happening.

 

Natalie Fisher: we had coached on that many times as well, yeah, and the belief that that is happening, it keeps you going. So what, what would you say were the main things that held you back before?

 

Natalie Fisher: Like, that you can maybe see now as, like, your blind spots?

 

Jessica Gutierrez: yes, not wanting to network at all was definitely something that held me back. And so I think coaching with you kind of made me think of networking in a different way, and again, like, just being more authentic.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And if something does inspire me about someone and their position, or I’m actually very curious and, you know, I do have an interest in learning about everything, not just, like.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: hey, I need a job, kind of deal, because I definitely never liked that kind of interaction.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Or even just trying to sell myself, if I took the…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: the, you know, the attention off of me, I felt a lot more comfortable. Because I can talk your ear off about a frog, or some kind of, like, animal that I love, or a forest or ecosystem that I love, but when it comes to me, I’m like, ugh, don’t, don’t do it, I don’t wanna…

 

Natalie Fisher: So just getting comfortable.

 

Natalie Fisher: I love it. And my goal with the cocktail party was to take the ick out of the whole networking.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yes. Yes, and so it was, like, different strategies to take the ick out of there, and so I would try it. I’m like, okay, yeah, this feels more bearable.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And… yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: Awesome. And then… The main things that you’ve learned through the journey?

 

Natalie Fisher: Would you be able to… Save what that would be… I know it’s kind of a big question.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: That was a big question.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I think… You know, I think I learned that coaching is…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: just kind of awesome, in the sense, like, I do, I like it a lot more, I…

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: tools that you get from it, and the focus that you get from it. I’m not just, like, coming in and talking about all of my problems. I’m coming in with, like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: a, you know, a problem, and then maybe, like, a one problem, and then a strategy to kind of work on for that week, and then continue working on. Maybe some people have had success with other things in the past, but I feel like coaching has been way more direct.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, I love that takeaway. That’s amazing.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: So, and I have heard similar things from people as well, and the way that I kind of like to say it is, like, because I’ve done therapy too, and I’ve found the same kind of thing. It’s like, oh, we’re just kind of talking in circles, I don’t really have, like, a new thought process or a new… like, that’s why I became a coach, because I loved it so much.

 

Natalie Fisher: And it’s like, it’s like what you’re saying. It’s… coaching is focused, it’s on a specific result, it’s on achieving a specific thing, and then it’s about implementing specific strategies, pieces, thought processes to get you to that specific result. And that’s why I think it works so well. So, thanks for articulating that and that…

 

Natalie Fisher: That’s a great main takeaway from the journey, because you can use that now for the rest of your life now. You’ll, like, your brain will never be the same again. It’ll be like, okay, like, I can… like, I really think that’s the secret to the universe. I’m just like, with implementing these things, you can… you can achieve, like, you can blow your own mind.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Oh, yeah.

 

Natalie Fisher: So many things that you wouldn’t have thought possible before.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Oh yeah, I’m, like, way more mentally grounded than I probably would have ever been, and definitely bef… yeah, before this program, I was not…

 

Natalie Fisher: very happy, and I…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: I could see that in myself, because even when I’d go on trips or something, I’m still upset about, like, how my life is going, like, career-wise. I was still very unsatisfied, and now I’m like…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: there’s possibilities now, and I’m open to that uncertainty. Still scared of it, but I know I have the tools to work through it.

 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, and that’s all we could hope for as humans, really. That’s what we… that’s all that’s required.

 

Natalie Fisher: Amazing! Well, thank you so much! I think that I’ve wrapped up all the questions, and you’ve answered, and you’ve done such a great job of being here today, and fully thinking about everything, and like, I don’t know how… if you were prepared for this or not, but you really did a great job. So, was there anything else you wanted to add? I’ll just give you one last opportunity, if there was anything else you wanted to say.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Well, I just… well, thank you again for having me. I was really excited and worried I was gonna go off on, like, these tangents that made no sense. But…

 

Natalie Fisher: I guess…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: to share, I mean, I… I truly believe this program is great, and it’s…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: very different. So… you know, if…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: You think you’re doing everything right, again, with, like, all your, you know, apps and your resume brushing up, and it’s still not working, like…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: It’s the mental side. It really is gonna be the mental side that gets you through this and makes it a little more enjoyable, and, like, gets you learning. Like.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Your program even talks about taking data points, like, as a scientist, I very much appreciated that, too. So…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Yeah, and like, I was able to pull up that conversation. I’m like, oh yeah, that happened in July, because I was taking these data points of when I was doing these things.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: And so…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: it is… I think it’s worth it if, you know, if you really… if you really want to invest in yourself, even just, like, saving if you need to in your increments as much as you can.

 

Natalie Fisher: to…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: to get you to this point. Because if you are feeling, like, alone and really hating this process, I think coaching will help.

 

Natalie Fisher: Amazing. Me too.

 

Natalie Fisher: I know it will! Amazing! Okay, well, that’s our interview for today, thank you so much, and…

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Thank you, Natalie.

 

Natalie Fisher: Talk to you soon.

 

Jessica Gutierrez: Alright, see you soon!