Welcome to the Get a Six Figure Job You Love and Thrive podcast. This is Natalie Fisher. I am back with another episode.  Today we’re gonna be talking about how to get decision makers to sell themselves to you. And I’m gonna share some specific examples  as to how I’ve done this in interviews and how I do this in my sales conversations.  And I would love for you to stay tuned. Hello, hello. All right, so  the dynamic of an interview is usually like the unspoken dynamic is like the interviewer is the person in control. They’re the one who has the power. They’re the ones who decide, you know, if they’re gonna hire you or not. That’s kind of the unspoken dynamic, right?  And so they’re the ones who generally, have the power as far as everybody is concerned, right?  And basically,  we’re at the mercy of whatever they think or whatever they say or whatever they ask us,  whether or not we can answer that correctly, quote unquote, and I’m using air quotes here.  And that is kind of the unspoken dynamic of how it goes, right? But  I’m thinking of it this way. Think of it this way, if you’re going on a date.  And this is like very old school, like. It’s like  that thinking of it that way is like saying whenever you go on a date, the man is the one who decides whether he likes you or not, and he’s the one in control. He’s the one with the power, right?  And we do not live in a world where that’s the case anymore.  Right.  When you’re going on a date. Well, I mean, some people still abide by that, but that’s not that’s not where the world is headed. um at least not with the people that I surround myself with or the way that I have  progressed through my life. So  the man doesn’t always have the power, just like the employer doesn’t always have the power. It’s like  we basically, as women, we just, give them the power and it’s ours to give and we give it. And same with the employer. Like we go into an interview and we give them the power without even knowing it by thinking that, by thinking, oh, they’re the ones who decide, right?  And so we’ve all heard this cliche of like, you’re interviewing them as much as they’re interviewing you. But here’s the thing, we don’t actually know how to do that. We don’t know how to flip the dynamic so that you actually are interviewing them, so that you actually are feeling that.  It’s just a cute thing we say.  So I want to show you in this podcast. a tip for how you can do that.  So  it  works so well.  So. Here’s how it works. Have you ever had someone ask you about your experience? So say they ask you about something, but your experience isn’t really that great in it.  It could be anything. But I’m to use the example of PowerPoint, OK, just to keep it really simple. And they ask you like, do you have any experience with PowerPoint or what is your experience with PowerPoint? And let’s just say  we know that this is important to them because they have this on the job description. Maybe it says  must be uh must be skilled in PowerPoint, right?  Or something like that, right?  And so now they’re asking you about it in the interview, okay?  So the classic way to answer it would be, like, and let’s just presume for this example that you don’t,  okay? Now could be anything, switch it for like Python,  Azure,  like switch it for whatever you want. This is just an example, PowerPoint. Let’s say you do not have a ton of experience in PowerPoint. Let’s say maybe you’ve never opened PowerPoint before,  but you want to answer this in the interview.  So what somebody might think initially, who’s given all the power to the interviewer is they might think, oh, crap, I don’t have experience in PowerPoint. They’re not going to want to hire me because of this. Oh, they’re going to think that I’m not as skilled as the other candidates. They’re going to hire someone who has experience in PowerPoint.  Oh, I’m like, I’m done. I’m toast. Right.  Or they might think, well, I can learn it. And they might really believe like, oh, I can learn PowerPoint. So I will just talk about it like it’s not a problem. I’ll just say, no, I haven’t had that much experience in PowerPoint. I’ve worked at it a couple of times, but, I can learn it. And here’s a lot of examples of the way that I learned things quickly. Right.  That’s like the second level up. And so what I want to give you is like the third level of like in a new league of how to answer the questions of the questions like this, because what that is, is it’s a chop question. OK,  when someone asks you, what’s your experience in PowerPoint? or what’s your experience with blah, blah, blah. It can be a trap question. The reason why I call it a trap question is because  when you give the answer, it’s then they are  they get to judge whether or not your answer was good enough. Right. So they they’re the ones who get to you. You’re basically.  giving them the power by trying to convince them. puts you in convince-y mode, right? Like, oh yeah, but I can learn it.  And I’ve done this and I’ve done this. believe me, it’s not a problem. I can learn it. Don’t worry about it, right?  So instead of that, I’m gonna show you how to do it in a way that it’s gonna be, it’s just gonna flip the whole dynamic around, okay? So step one is  own that you don’t have experience in PowerPoint. Own it. and be totally unapologetic about it because you’re going to find out what the bigger picture is. Okay? So there’s a couple of different ways to handle it.  like, for example, the example that I’m working with here is  with somebody who, let’s say  they’re being hired for like an instructional designer role or something.  And they’re asking about PowerPoint because their company uses PowerPoint. Okay? But  this instructional designer has zero experience in PowerPoint because they’ve been working with other softwares, let’s say. The way that you can answer it is you would say something like, no, I have absolutely no experience in PowerPoint whatsoever. However,  what I do know how to do and what I focus my career on is actually creating engaging presentations that get people to go the whole way through the training. That is something that earned me  an award at my last company. or even if it didn’t earn you an award. Like I had a client who who these videos got shared across departments because they were so good. Like she made some videos that were so good and they were training videos and she was an instructional designer. Shout out if you’re listening, Kelly, that she would be able to say, like I have no experience in PowerPoint. No. However, I do know how to take a presentation and put it together in a way that is compelling and will have people paying attention the whole way through. And that’s really what I focus my career on. So if you’re looking for someone who has specific PowerPoint experience, that is not me. And just like own it. Don’t even be like, oh, but I can learn it, blah, blah, blah. It’s like, no, because really the PowerPoint experience is actually not what they want. They think that’s what they want, but it isn’t. So that’s one way to do it.  A second way that you can do it is when they ask you that,  and maybe you don’t know exactly what it is they want. In this case, we’re looking at an instructional designer.  And we like that is one of the things that an instructional designer would be focused on high level if they’re really good at what they do. They’re going to want somebody to  consume all of their training, be super engaged and learn everything that they  presented in the training. Right. And the way that is presented  and the way that it’s revealed and the order that it’s in and the way that is communicated is  way more important than whether or not you can  design pretty PowerPoint slides. Right. You can get someone on Fiverr to decide pretty PowerPoint slides. very easily, right? But what someone is gonna pay for, that pay you like six figures for, is to develop a trading program that is gonna revolutionize their organization, right? It’s not about the PowerPoint, okay? And just bear with me, this is just an example, okay? You can apply it to anything.  Apply it to like, don’t know this software language, or I don’t know this thing, or  I don’t know this particular  program. It’s like,  what is the actual big picture of what they want? It’s not about those little tiny things. OK, those things don’t matter to them. They think they do. They need to base the criteria on something. So they’re like, oh, well, we work with this. We need someone who works with this. Like, no,  you can easily outsource some of that stuff.  But sometimes in the interviews, they get caught up in these things because they don’t know how to interview very well or they just think that that’s important. But  your job is actually to show them what they really want, show them what actually is important. And it’s it’s not these little tiny things.  OK,  so the second way to do it, if you don’t know  what the big picture is,  right? Like you don’t know what it’s not as obvious.  And they ask you like, oh, what’s your experience with um Microsoft Azure or something, for example. And you don’t know like exactly why they want that experience. can say, you can ask them a question like, oh,  just wondering before I answer that, what is  like, how are you using Azure and like, where does it fit into like the big picture of your tech stack?  Right.  And that is a question that you answer back to kind of get the information of like where you want to position yourself. Right.  And then once you have that, you have more information of the big picture, then you can say, no, actually, I don’t have any experience with that. But here’s what I can do. And here’s what I focus my career on. And here’s what I actually have placed the importance on.  Because really, any of these things can be learned. Right.  It’s why we hear that  like And Simon Sinek says this, I love Simon Sinek. If I’m honest, I have like a huge crush on him.  And he and many other leaders say this. They say,  you  can learn any skill, but you can’t train a good attitude. Right? And  so that’s where that saying comes from of  hire for attitude, train for skill. Right?  And anybody who doesn’t believe that, they’re… They’re either rigid  or they don’t really mean it because there was another, there was a study done by Harvard Business Review  and it stated they interviewed a whole bunch of hiring managers and they did this study. And the study said that the hiring managers  said they wanted skills. They said it was more important that the person had particular skills. However,  when it came down to their behavior of who they actually hired, that wasn’t the case.  They actually hired emotionally based on who they liked the best.  And they  they justified with logic as to why their skills were not as important.  And if you’re interested in that study, we can link that up in the the show notes. I believe it’s called  the. The competent jerk versus the lovable fool or something like that. And it was basically saying, yes, people say they want the skills and they want all these qualifications. But when it comes down to it, they actually in in practice. they will hire the person that they like the best.  And it doesn’t mean the person that they like the best is a complete moron and has zero skills, but they have a good attitude and they’re more pleasant and they’re just a nicer person and they just want to be around them.  Right? So it’s like, you can have someone who’s really, really skilled and experienced, but they’re just a jerk to work with.  like  that, your brain will find ways to, to decide that person’s not the right fit, right? Even if they’re the perfect fit and they’ve got all the qualifications, right? So When you can tap into the bigger picture of what the people actually want, you can actually completely shift the dynamic and shift their focus from these little itty bitty things that they think are important  to the bigger picture of what you can do for them, how you contribute for them, and what you’ve focused your career on, the differences that you wanna make, the vision that you have,  and that then enrolls them in you as a person, right? And it takes you out of convincing energy because that convincing energy is a trap. And  a lot of questions that you get asked will be trap questions like that.  And another concept that I teach is about the interview being  being like a sorting exercise,  an interview being like you’re making an offer to the to people to do something for them, to help them get to a result, to help them get to their goals.  And it’s  many people treat it like a performance.  And so the trap questions keep you in performance mode.  So when you  get asked like, oh, what’s your experience with this? Or like, what are your sales like with this? Or how have you done this?  And I understand in interviews, like we will be answering those questions and they’re not always traps, but the way you know it’s a trap is if  you feel  that you could get the result anyway for what they’re looking for. but you don’t have these little boxes on the job description checked or whatever, like you don’t know PowerPoint or you don’t know Azure or you don’t have a lot of experience with this or that, um or you don’t have five years experience, but you know, like you know in your heart and you’re grounded in the fact that you can help them get these results they want,  then it’s a bigger picture thing. It’s not about these little box checking things, right?  So  this works like a charm because what it does,  psychologically,  it… makes the person  think,  oh, this person actually really owns the fact that they don’t have this experience and they don’t even care.  And it comes from,  their thoughts are gonna be more likely,  oh, this person is actually focusing on something even more important.  They get it, they get the big picture, they understand  what’s gonna drive what we need.   And they will get taken with you as far as like, oh, yeah, PowerPoint, whatever. That’s not important. Or you can learn that. Like, that’s easy. We’ll set you up with a PowerPoint uh course or an Azure course or whatever. Like, we’ll just we’ll take care of that. That’s not an issue. Right.  Like, it’s more likely that they will go there and then they’ll start to try to sell themselves to you. They’ll be like, oh, OK, well,  actually, that is more important, like getting people through  through the whole presentation and getting the training.  so that people are consuming the whole thing, that is way more important than PowerPoint.  We want this person. Like, yeah, we want someone who’s thinking like that. Like, oh, they’re actually thinking  higher level than us.  Like with that question, because that question is just a stupid question. Like, who cares if you know PowerPoint or not? Like, if you know  how to get the results in the job, PowerPoint is such a minuscule little detail, right?  That if it’s  in a deal and you’re negotiating a deal and it’s like, oh, do we throw PowerPoint skills in there or not? It’s like, it doesn’t matter if they’re left on or off because there’s something that can so easily be sorted out, right?  So  the psychology behind it is when you pull back  and you’re not trying to convince,  the other person actually comes towards you, right? So instead of saying, because convincing would be like,  would be, oh no, I don’t know PowerPoint, but that’s okay because I can learn quickly and I’ve done this and I’ve done this and  I’ve done this and here’s an example of how I’ve done this and I can do this and I can do this and I can do this. And like, that’s not terrible. It’s not the worst answer and that can work and that has worked.  But the next level answer is just saying, no, I actually have no experience with that and  here’s what I did focus on, what I am focused on, what’s important to me.  And it’s something way bigger and more important than what. than what that question is about. Right.  So  it’s not like wrong answers. It’s just like levels of answers. Right.  So like the first level of answer, the lowest level answer to that would be,  oh, no, I don’t know PowerPoint. Sorry. I guess you’re looking for someone who knows PowerPoint. Sorry. I guess I shouldn’t be here. I’ll just see myself out by. Right. Like that’s like the lowest level of answer.  And then the second one is like, no, I don’t know PowerPoint, but you know. that’s okay because I’ve done this and this and I can learn it and it’s gonna be like, and I  can do designing and I can like,  it’s a little bit convincing and you get into the convincing and it might not feel that good to you. It might feel like you’re still lacking something, like you’re still not good enough. Like, because even when you’re saying it, right? Like you’re in that whole like, oh, but I can still do this and I can,  it’s kind of like if you were overcompensating by saying, um no, I don’t, but I’ll work extra hours to make it up and I’ll figure this out and I’ll do this and I’ll do this and like, I don’t know it, but. like I’ll overcompensate for you so that you can hire me anyway, right?  It’s just a little bit needy.  And then the third level is the mic drop level where you’re in a new league and where you’re like, no, I absolutely don’t,  I’ve never opened PowerPoint in my life. But here’s what I will tell you is that I know how to  design presentations in a way that gets people to watch the whole way through.  And I have a track record of this and this is basically what I focus my career on. This is what’s been important to me.  This is where I’ve taken like  I’ve taken lessons and courses in human psychology to get somebody to take all  my course all the way to the  to the end. I have learned the skill of getting people present and engaged in the training so that they  have no choice but to consume it all. And by the end of it, they are performing  like  50 percent better than they were than the people who took the training before the one I.  the one that I created, right?  Or like the success rates are just so much higher. And it’s like, but no, I don’t know PowerPoint at all. So if you need someone  who wants PowerPoint, who has PowerPoint experience, definitely not me. Just own it.  That  is a mic drop. That will get them moving forward to you and being like, oh, okay, well, that’s fine. We don’t need PowerPoint. Don’t worry about that.  Tell us more about that, right? Like tell us more about how you engage people and like what else can you do for us? And like,  let’s open up the conversation to talk more about the big vision and. Like it’s gonna go in a different direction, okay? Because you’re kind of diminishing the little tiny box checking mentality  and bringing in a much higher level  vision oriented future focused conversation that can excite you both if it’s gonna be the right fit, okay?  So  if you have ever had a success in the past but you’ve been doubting yourself or you’re feeling like you…  could do the job, but you’re not super confident about all the little,  questions that they’re gonna ask you.  This is something that I help you with, okay?  This is something that I do really well.  I shift this high level stuff,  shift the low level stuff that people are worried about into the high level, more important things  that actually matter, that actually move the needle, that actually create  a dynamic that is gonna get them coming to you.  Oftentimes they will start selling themselves to you. They will start seeing what’s important because they’re following your lead.  And you can be the one sitting in the power seat throughout this situation. And  you always had the power. It’s not that you never did. It’s just that our society and the way that things have kind of collectively been  is that we we’ve thought that, the person is the one making the decision, right? They’re the ones who have the power.  But That is not how I have operated. And I used to operate like that. Right. I used to.  In the beginning, when I was working with  with people on a one on one basis in my coaching practice,  people would  would would give me these trap questions and they would say things like,  well, how do I know  that  they would try to get me to sell them sell me to them? They’d be like,  well, do you have somebody who’s going to be  who’s done exactly what I’ve done?   And can you show me their testimonial? Right.  And I used to like try to convince them. I used to go into that level to um answer. And I used to say things like, oh, well, I don’t have that exact person, but this person is really similar  and this person has similarities. And, you know, they kind of did the same thing as you, but I don’t have that exact person. Right.  And instead now  I say something like, well, I’m not really sure. Like if if that.  Like by asking that question, I don’t know that you really believe in yourself,  right? Like if you need to see proof of somebody who’s exactly like you, who’s already done it through my program,  I  don’t know that you actually have the belief in yourself to get it done because that person, even if they had accomplished it,  that doesn’t mean anything about your results.  So tell me where that’s coming from because I’m not sure you believe in your ability to. Do you believe in your ability to? And then I would. put it back to them because the truth is I can’t help anybody unless they believe in themselves to  take a step. if they like, I’m like, don’t sign up for my program if you don’t believe that  you can create the result you want, right? Cause you’re the one who’s gonna create it.  I cannot perceive for you. I can’t do pushups for you. can’t believe, but I can believe for you all I want, but you’ve got to believe too or it won’t work, right?  So that’s what I do now.  And it drastically changes the… the person’s mindset, right? Because I want them believing in themselves. That is for their greater good, right? So,  and  there’s countless and countless examples of how I’ve done this and I’ve become very, very good at it because  it is what serves the person the most and it is what gets the best people inside the program because they believe in themselves, right? And like I said, if you don’t believe in yourself,  don’t sign up. If you’re not willing to take a step to believe in yourself that’s bigger than a step you’ve taken before, then don’t sign up, right?  And it’s kind of like that in interviews where you’re kind of saying, this is the more important thing. So if you need these little tiny things taken care of, that’s not me. Right.  So it’s kind of the same thing, but it’s the same mentality because  your interview is a sales conversation. You are selling yourself to this organization, this employer.  And it’s what most people do is we’ll get into convincing mode. and they will start convincing, trying to overcompensate without knowing, or they’ll try to over explain.  Sometimes  a common mistake is they will try um to explain why they don’t have the skill. You might be like, well, it’s because my last company, like they didn’t work with PowerPoint, so  I don’t really have much experience. But you know, I tried to kind of do it on the side, but then. I got too busy and then I didn’t have the time to get the skill. It’s like, no, you are not responsible for going to get every single certification for every single software that does the same thing that everybody in all the different organizations uses. And that’s our biggest, like a huge thought error. I don’t want to say the biggest, but it’s a big thought error in thinking that you are responsible for going out and getting all these things before anybody has committed to hiring you yet. Right, because  really what happens is someone hires you based on your high level thinking, on your vision, on your ability  to bring a vision together, create a result, turn around a department. They hire you based on that.  And then the skills you need to learn or the programs you need to learn or the boxes you need to check,  you check them because you’re in the role,  not  before. Right?  It’s like saying, OK, I’m going to cook a meal for  10 people  and I have no idea what these people eat, so I’m just gonna go to the grocery store and I’m gonna buy everything, okay?  Everything.  And that way,  and you know, you’re not gonna have enough room in the car, it’s gonna cost you  a lot of money, it’s gonna be multiple trips, you’re gonna have to go back and forth,  your house is gonna be full to the brim of all this food,  and then the people are gonna come in  and you’re not gonna know what they even want, right? You’re going to be like, OK, well, I’ve got everything now, so I have everything that you could possibly want.  And then they’re going to say, oh, yeah, but you don’t have that.  Like  you went to the store, you got everything. And then let’s say this one person really likes fennel  and they’re like, well, I want a meal with fennel because that’s my favorite flavor. And you’re like, oh, well, the store didn’t have the store that I went to didn’t have fennel, so I can’t cook with fennel. It’s like, no,  you want to find out what the people want first. So then you can go shopping accordingly. And you want to have them agreed, agreeing that they’re coming over for dinner because then you’re just shopping for no, for nothing, for no reason. Right. And that’s what people are doing with their certifications. Right. They’re just going,  getting certifications  with no guarantees, with no,  nobody’s committed to anything.  They don’t have any dinner guests yet. They don’t have any opportunities yet. And they’re getting certifications. Right. And then, and this has happened so many times to my clients, they’ll go to another interview  and they’ll be like, OK, I got my PMP certification. And then the person will be like, oh, but you don’t have agile. And we’re really looking for someone with agile. And then the person, the person who’s who’s looking for the job goes, OK, I’ll go get agile. And then they go get agile certified and then they go interview again. And then the person says, oh, yeah, but you don’t have Scrum Master and we really need someone with Scrum Master. So we’re going to hire someone with Scrum Master. And it’s like, no, it’s actually none of these boxes. It’s your it’s your inability to paint a big picture with a big vision and. give  the value, the VCVC method is the value creation, value communication. So is there an ability to  communicate the value properly, paint the vision,  talk about what’s important, have a dynamic discussion about what’s important. It’s like, you’re not doing that.  You’re focusing on the boxes and you’re being like, okay, let me just go check all the boxes. And it’s the most ridiculous use of time that you could ever spend because there’s no guarantees, right? So that’s why so many people, so many certifications, so many degrees, so many years experience,  no job offer. No pay, not the pay they want, right? And it’s because they’re missing, they’re missing their big vision. They’re missing their big picture, right? And they’re just following this hamster wheel of I need to check the boxes. I need to check this other box. I need to check the boxes. I need to check the box. It is just so exhausting. So I’ve had many people come through my program, work with me, and they have already had an MBA that didn’t get them the result they wanted. Or they’re like, oh, I’m gonna go back and get a PhD. And it’s like, Recognize your reason for doing that, right?  Some places,  of course, there’s some cases where you absolutely do need to have these things, right?  But I’m talking about the majority of positions and in this hiring market right now,  there are tons of people with all the qualifications above and beyond  that are not getting those opportunities. They are not getting offered those jobs.  So that begs the question,  what’s the difference, right? And I’m telling you. It is your ability to share your value, pay division,  and be in the vibe.  Be in the vibe of like, yes, I’m valuable and I got this  and this is happening.  And  I don’t know if it’s you or someone else, but I know this is coming and it’s happening and being in that vibe and energy of that is just done. Right.  And those are skills. Those are skills we don’t learn because our brain just wants to doubt and we say, what if it doesn’t work? And what if it doesn’t? And what if this happens? And oh, look at all the crap. post on LinkedIn where people are complaining and it’s so hard for everyone. And  then you go down that rabbit hole, you end up just kind of spiraling there. And then that perpetuates instead of the other direction, which is also accessible at any moment. At any moment, you can shift your thinking. You can have a new perspective.  You can create a new opportunity for yourself.  The opportunities are  there  right now. It is your ability to see them. It is your ability to,  to, um to take advantage of them, to master them,  to know how to show up when they come your way.  And they are always there.  Like from 11, 12 years of doing this, there has never been a time where my clients are not actively interviewing. There’s never been a time. There’s always been interviews, there’s always been wins, there’s always been learnings going on every single week.  So  I leave that with you today. Thank you so much for listening.  Sign up for the value vision quiz if you haven’t yet.  And I’m doing a training this week. So when you listen to this podcast  on October the 8th,  which is a Wednesday, I’m doing a 90 minute training. It’s called Four Open Secrets to Getting Hired in Today’s Market. Sign up for that training. It’ll be in the show notes.  And I will see you then.