Ep #51: Success Hacking: A Client Success Interview with Michael

The Get a Six Figure Job You Love Podcast with Natalie Fisher | Success Hacking: A Client Success Interview with Michael

One of the things I love most about coaching is that it is not a one-and-done thing. It doesn’t just affect you when you do it; it pays dividends for the rest of your life and career. Today’s guest joins me to share a first-hand experience of the compounding effects of coaching over time.


Michael hired me in 2019 after feeling confused and struggling with the job search process. He wasn’t sure what to do with the skills he had, and getting into the workforce felt impossible. After 3 months of working together, he was able to figure out exactly what he should be doing and began to apply everything he learned to his job search. Some years on, he is still applying what he learned in his life and has recently landed two competing 6-figure salary job offers as a result.


Tune in this week and hear how Michael took what he learned from me and applied it to create massive success for himself over and over again. We discuss his reservations about coaching before we worked together, how different his life is now and how he is still benefitting from coaching years after working together.


If you’re ready to dive deeper into your career mindset and start creating bigger, more impactful results in your career, click here to get started on your path to a six-figure career you love! 


What You’ll Learn from this Episode:


  • How Michael is still benefitting from the work we did.
  • What was making the job search so difficult for Michael before we worked together.
  • The mindset shifts Michael experienced.
  • Michael’s advice for anybody considering working with a coach.
  • The biggest fear Michael had to overcome to start coaching with me.
  • Why you must be willing to see things differently to make a change in your life.


Listen to the Full Episode:







Featured on the Show:


  • Ready to start making a serious impact in your industry? Want to be on the podcast? Join me at http://nataliefisher.ca/start/.
  • Check out my  YouTube Channel!
  • Let’s connect! Add me on LinkedIn.
  • Leave me a review, send me a screenshot, and I’ll send you the 50 Examples Story Guide full of detailed stories from my clients and myself that will help you nail the interview!



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Hello. Hello. You’re listening to the Get A Six Figure Job You Love Podcast. This is Episode 51, A Client Success Interview: Success Hacking with Michael Gunn.
Hey there. Welcome to the Get A Six Figure Job You Love Podcast. I’m your host, Natalie Fisher. I’m a certified career mindset coach who also happens to want to skip all the BS and get to what it really takes to create real results for you in your career. On this podcast, you will create real mindset shifts that will lead to big results and big changes in your career and your income. No fluff here. If you want to get a six-figure job you love and create real concrete results in your industry and make a real impact, you’re in the right place. Are you ready? Let’s go.
So in this interview, we are having a conversation about success over time and the compounding effect of coaching over time. So Michael Gunn hired me in 2019. He was struggling and confused in the job search process. In this interview, we’re going to talk about what he achieved then and then when he found himself again in the position where he needed to job search, now he’s in the position to get two competing six figure offers with what he already learned and the amounts he already grew from back when he hired me. So we’re talking about the compounding effect and how it doesn’t just affect you when you do it, but how it affects you for literally the rest of your life and how you get that ROI. It stays in effect every single day after the program is over or the coaching agreement is over.
It’s the same for me, I found when I hire coaches, all of that has just added to the value of my brain to be able to continue to uplevel in every single day after that. So the coaching investment is not just like a one and done thing. It is a thing that pays dividends for the rest of your life and for the rest of your career because you can’t go from being successful So then going back and being unsuccessful. Some people think that you can do that and self sabotage, and that is just a thought. It’s just a belief that something in the external world made you do that. It’s not a thing that needs to happen.
So today, we’re talking about specifically how this worked for Michael. We talked about his thoughts about coaching and his investment and the reason why he felt it was so worth it and the way that he hacked his own success. Because ultimately, that’s what he did. He took what he learned from hiring me as his guide to then going off and creating massive success for himself over again. Then we came back together recently because he had these two competing six-figure job offers, and he wanted some help with that. So really excited to share this interview with you today and get you thinking, as always, how does it apply to you. How could this work for you? What do you kind of see in this story that resonates with you? How could you be similar in how you hack your success?
Hello. Welcome to another episode of the podcast. Today we have another very special guest, one of my clients from way back in 2019. He’s coming on the podcast today to talk about his journey from then until now and all the shifts he had back then and how they’ve benefited him today. Yeah. I’m really excited to get into it. Michael Gunn, why don’t you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. My name is Michael. I’m a data scientist. Before I started working with Natalie, I wasn’t really sure what to do with my skills. I have a degree in neuroscience and another one in library science. Just getting into the workforce just felt like impossible for me for years. After three months of work, we were able to figure out exactly what I should be doing, which was data science. We worked out a plan to get me talking to people and to get my foot in the door at some different companies.
I ended up with three opportunities. I took one, which was to start a business after I found a partner in Toronto. We’ve been working on that ever since. I got in touch with Natalie recently because after about two years working on this company, I wanted to use the experience to get a job. So I use the techniques that we worked on to do it again. I just got two offers a couple weeks ago. So now I’m just figuring out which one to take and I’ll be starting one of them next week.
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Yeah. So much exciting stuff has happened. So great to hear. Yeah, before I met you, but way back when I met you, now it seems like I’m kind of talking to a different person because when we caught up, you had done so much and your mindset has just completely shifted from how you used to think about things. Yeah, thank you for sharing that, mentioning about how you felt like the job search was really hard for you. What do you think made it hard for you? What do you think the main challenge, like mental challenges you were having? Because you were obviously highly educated, you had the skills and you had a lot of potential and ability, what do you think was making it hard for you?
Well, my original plan when I went to school was to become a professor. Then when I was in grad school, I saw these PhD students and what their prospects were. Right now, in Canada and in other countries too, it looks like you’re probably not going to become a professor. You’re going to be a seminal instructor and make barely any money. So I thought I needed to get into an industry outside of school. I wasn’t sure how to make that switch. Because the people who advise you in university typically, they haven’t done that before, so they can’t tell you how to do it. Then once I got out, I was looking around, trying to apply for jobs. But it was like hitting a brick wall. If I tried to pivot, it was just hitting the same brick wall again and again, and it really got frustrating. So I wasn’t sure what to do.
Really tells you how to get a job when you’re in school.
Yeah, totally. So I remember a lot of stuff that happened there where first of all, you committed to action because you went and started networking, started meeting people and talking to people. But you had some shifts from like, “I don’t know how this is going to be possible. I don’t know how I’m going to be able to do this,” to starting to feel like, “Oh, I’m getting this. I can do this,” and obviously having achieved a lot. Where would you pinpoint like those shifts that you had in yourself to be able to do that?
I think the shift started maybe after about a month of working together after I had started meeting people. But I started to get frustrated again because I felt like it wasn’t working when it was really just that it wasn’t working fast enough for me and I was getting impatient. Then when we’d have the call every week, I remember this one time, I was really frustrated. You just reassured me that things would get better. So I just decided to be more patient. Then when I started to see that I was getting farther along and meeting people is starting to yield some results, that’s when I think it shifted, just seeing little improvements.
Yeah. So it started with the commitment to action and continuing that action, and then starting to pay attention to those incremental results you were getting because it would still be easy to say, “Oh, it’s still not working. It’s still not working.” But then you started to be like, “Okay, this might turn out or this person was helpful.” It’s the journey that everybody goes through. So really appreciate you sharing it. Then what do you think like the biggest fear you had to overcome was in deciding to get help and deciding to say yes to working with me? Because I know at that point, you were feeling really sad but it was still an investment to make. What do you think the biggest fear was that you had to overcome?
Well, I don’t know if it was a fear, but it was an invisible script, this idea that I shouldn’t need a coach or that I shouldn’t need somebody to help me, I should just be able to do it on my own. What I ended up realizing was before working with you, I took one of Ramit Sethi’s courses on mindsets. He was talking about how successful people use coaches and that’s how they become successful. I was thinking like, why would you need a coach? But actually this most successful people have several coaches. They help them to keep focused so that they don’t need to rely on themselves for discipline to keep them motivated.
Yeah, totally. It’s really smart that you picked up on what he said there and applied it to your own life because it’s so true. I have a coach too. I think that everyone who experiences working with somebody
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else can kind of see, “Oh, they’re pointing out stuff that I didn’t see. I didn’t realize I was thinking that way. I didn’t realize I was doing that.” So yeah. Als really smart of you to be like, “Oh, I noticed that and I’m going to go do that,” instead of just continuing to hit the brick wall. So yeah. I mean, the results that you were able to achieve not just once, but again over the last I guess two years, how would you say your life is different now with how you think about your own challenges and stuff? Sorry.
Getting that work experience was a big deal because I had work experience that I might have been able to leverage, but it would have been more difficult. But when I started this company, it forced me to have to learn certain things. I had tried learning Python programming a few years ago. I only got so far because I didn’t have any idea for a project. But when I met my business partner, he had a vision for something. That’s something that I can’t really do is have a vision, but I could make his vision happen. So having to think about that and look up how to do this and how to do that to make it happen, that’s when the learning started. After about six months, I knew enough Python that I didn’t have to look up every single line of code I had to write and I could start to just work more efficiently.
Yeah, and kind of learned your strengths through that process being like, Oh, this is something I’m good at.”
Yeah, it was nice to see that and to get feedback from him too and to know that this was actually going somewhere.
Yeah. Also, would you mind talking about how you … Because I know you met up with this, you found him through Shaper. You were networking are a bunch of different ways. What was it during that interaction, you think you were able to show him that allowed you guys to start working together?
Well, one thing that he was impressed with was that my laptop, which when I bought it had windows on it, I had put Linux on it. So he was impressed with that. He thought, he told me, “Oh, you must be a computer hacker then.”
Yeah. The simplest things really catch people’s attention when they have that in common with you or they’re like, “Oh, cool.”
Yeah. People like Linux comfortability because if you like Linux, then that means that you’re going to be comfortable with a web server because most of them have Linux now. That really said something to him. Another thing that he liked was I want he was telling me about this business problem, I was asking him questions and that he was impressed with.
Yeah, huge. So when you were in asking questions in then that interaction, what were you focused on, do you think? Because in order to ask really good questions, you need to be focused on his problem and what he needed. So how do you think you were able to focus there instead of what most people do, which is worrying about, “Uh-oh. What if he doesn’t like me? What if I’m not good enough? What if I can’t offer anything?” How were you able to shift in order to have your focus where you needed it for that interaction?
Well, I guess that’s where the preparation came in. I had met so many people at that point that it was a lot easier for me to just think about the pain points. I’d put so many reps in.
Yeah, exactly.
That’s really important, putting in the time and then allowing yourself to try and fail and fail and fail. Then eventually, you’ll find people who will like you, and you’ll be ready for them.
Really well said. Yeah, exactly. Then being willing to just go through that stuff. Because I know we had a lot of calls where you were feeling that frustration, and I have that with clients, that just happens. It’s just part of the process. It’s just totally normal. We think when we’re in it, that it’s like a problem. But it’s really just part of the journey. So really, really good of you to be willing to get through that because
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now, you can so much easily get through that as we’ll talk about with your most recent successes as well. So what do you think made you successful with coaching as there’s some people who will hire a coach, and it won’t always work for them or they’ll do a program and it won’t always work? What do you think you were able to do that made you successful in applying everything that you got?
I guess it was knowing that there was something wrong and that I had to figure out what it was or I wasn’t going to go anywhere.
Yeah. That willingness to just keep going deeper and deeper and answering the hard questions.
I remember one of my relatives, she offered to have me see a life coach once. I refused it because I thought I don’t need this and I knew that that was my attitude, that I wouldn’t have helped me.
Yeah, yeah. Because at the time, you weren’t ready. Yeah. That’s okay. Because when you’re ready, the teacher appears.
Yeah. Do you think that’s the answer then? It was just that you happen to just be ready to be like, “Okay, I’ve had enough of this, successful people have coaches, I’m just going to do it and get some help?” Then that kind of mentality allowed you to just move forward even when it was hard?
Yeah. I’ve heard that it’s like the same with rehab when you’re addicted. You won’t be able to stop the addiction unless you want to. Some people, they’re in and out of rehab. Then other people, they’re able to stop.
Yeah, yeah.
It’s really about your attitude.
Absolutely. Yeah. Being ready, having solid reasons why you want to. Yeah. I mean, when I was going through my coach certification, I was trying to coach everybody. I realized some people just don’t want to hear it.
Yeah, it’s super true.
Totally, exactly. So moving forward after the first access that you had and then being in the position where you were going to be on the job hunt again, what were you able to kind of immediately pull from what you’ve learned and use now in getting two competing really great offers on the table?
Well, one thing was knowing that I had done it before, I think that was a big deal. Because I was really confident that I’d be able to figure it out again. Another thing was having this two years of experience, that meant that my resume would be even better than before. Like gaining a lot of confidence. I actually found that this time, because I had that experience and I was able to market myself as having five years of experience, plus being in a highly in demand field, it meant that I could have recruiters coming to me. So I feel like I know your technique is to actually go on LinkedIn and look for people. But I found that I could have people coming to me this time.
Yeah. Yeah.
It was kind of overwhelming because people just kept coming to me. I was setting up two or three interviews a week.
I feel like it’s overwhelming.
Yeah. So in a good way, but also needing to manage your thoughts around how am I going to deal with all these people. What did you do to get people reaching out to you? What do you think it was?
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It was the resume, just making sure that I had the right keywords in it. Because those recruiters, they’re looking for resumes that fulfill the criteria of their clients. You need to have the right keywords in there.
Yeah, I’ve heard that too. For LinkedIn, the keywords are really important. If you have those right, you can get recruiters reaching out to you. So lots of people have lots of recruiters reaching out to them. But some they can’t seem to close the deal with the interview. So where did you apply what you learned there to be able to actually land the two competing offers?
Well, when I started this, I wasn’t getting any offers either because I wasn’t ready for their questions. So I go out, there was this silly question that they asked about Python, which is, “What’s the difference between a list and a tuple?” The answer is a tuple is immutable meaning once it’s made, you can’t change it, but you can change a list. So it’s just a really easy question that anybody should be able to get. But the first time that I got it, I wasn’t ready for it. So one of the people working at our company who has a lot of tech experience, he said that I got to a point where I had like five interviews. I was frustrated. He said, “After about nine interviews, like technical interviews, you’ll know what questions are coming, and it’ll be a lot easier for you.”
Nice. Yeah. So he was able to give you that number that he probably just guessed or was his experience. Right? But that helped you to be like, “Okay. I’ll start to get it after nine.” Sometimes I say to people, yeah, and this is for listeners in their job search. I sometimes use this as an example too, which Michael’s kind of illustrated more concretely.
But I also sometimes say, “So if someone told you that if you were going to ride a unicycle, and that was something you wanted to learn, and you had to get on it for 100 days in a row, and you were for sure going to fall down at least the first half of the time, but on day 100, you were totally going to be able to ride it. Would you do it?” I mean, if you really did want to learn how to ride a unicycle. So sometimes help look at looking at it that way really helps to be like, “Okay. It’s going to take what it’s going to take,” and overestimating. But yeah. So just kind of being willing to go into that process.
Looking at it now, knowing what the process is like and having been successful previously, what kind of mindset did you bring to the interviewing, and when you did when something didn’t work out, how did you kind of react to it versus how you would have previously?
Well, one thing I tried to do at the end when they asked you what questions you have was to get more information about their pain points. I asked them like, what is this, the project that you want, that you would want me to work on or what what is the team? Because that shows that I’m interested in what they’re doing? If I can get them to talk about the actual pain point, like what they need me to do, then that can help me to talk about the value I could add?
Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, you did a really beautiful job of applying everything that you learned in coaching, like the mindset and then being able to interview in that way. Because, yeah, like I was saying, you can get lots of people contact you for interviews, but then you have to know how to close the interview. That’s where you applied those skills.
So what was your experience while working together, did anything surprise you?
I think what surprised me the most was was like how much actual traveling I was going to do and how many people I was going to meet. Because I didn’t think it would be as many as it was.
Yeah. What did you learn from the experience of putting yourself out there and meeting all these people?
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Well, most people didn’t want to help me. But a surprising number of people did. That was 10%, like you estimated. But they were willing to like sit with me for a half hour or an hour and just answer my questions and even give me specific advice sometimes.
Yeah. Some of it helpful, some of it not so helpful. But all part of your journey.
Yeah. I mean, even the ones who weren’t as helpful, at least it was still getting out there and meeting someone. There was still something I could learn usually.
Yes. That’s the positive mindset that you took from that was there’s always something to learn for sure. So now, how do you feel about the job hunt versus how you felt about it before?
Well, it’s a lot more doable now that I understand it. It’s still really difficult. But once you understand what’s really going on behind the scenes, it becomes a lot easier to know what to do.
Yeah. Totally.
Because I didn’t know what was going on five years ago.
So every decision I made was wrong because there was no way I could figure it out.
Yeah. Or we could say it was right. But you had to figure that out through the wrongs. Yeah. Yeah. I love what you said about that. It’s so true. Just having this insurmountable thing that seems impossible and then being able to figure it out, break it down, go and keep doing it until you get it. Then when you’re in the position of needing to do it again, you’re like, “Okay, this was hard. I could do hard things, but at least I understand how to do it now.” Huge. So what would you say to someone who is on the fence considering hiring a coach, to really sure if it’s worth it, what would you say to them?
Well, if you aren’t able to figure it out for yourself, I mean, having somebody around who knows what’s going on and who’s not you really is helpful. It’s worth it. I mean, you’re basically investing in yourself. In this case, if you want a better job and better pay, it’s going to be worth it in the end. You’re going to get a return on your investment if you’re willing to put in the work.
Yeah. That’s exactly how I encourage people to look at coaching and how I look at coaching myself. It’s not about what you put in, it’s about what you get out for now and for the years afterwards because I love having you on as an example. Because years later, you’re still benefiting from the work that we did. You’re implementing it, you’re building upon it. You’re even like improving it, right, and making it work even better. So how would you describe coaching to someone who’s never experienced it before or has no idea what it is?
Well, unlike psychotherapy, where they’re just letting you get your emotions out there, with this, you’re addressing wrongful mindsets that you have. Everybody has these beliefs that are not true, but we don’t know they’re true because we’ve convinced ourselves that they’re true. So you need someone to come in who’s mindful about these things to destroy those beliefs, to attack them, and then to get you to start attacking them on your own.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thank you for that. Really good. I love asking that question because you get a different description, but that was one of the best. So how would you specifically describe me as a coach? I mean, I probably changed a bit because that husband a couple of years. But how would you describe what it was like working with me back when we worked together?
I really like that you have HR experience. So you know what HR people are like and what they’re looking for. That was really helpful. I like that you’re introverted too because you understand the problems that introverts have because we’re not as good at interviewing as extroverts are.
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
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I think the fact that you have had coaching before on things and you’ve done a lot of self improvement was helpful too because you know what it’s like. So you’re not just like a motivational speaker comes in there and just tries to motivate people, like you’ve actually been there too.
Thanks. Yeah, I really like to add that stuff in and talk about my personal experience and share with people how I’ve done the work as well because I think it’s valuable. So thanks for confirming that and the feedback on that. I think it’s important for people to know, if they’re considering hiring a coach, yeah, hearing other people’s perspectives is really valuable on what it’s really like to work with somebody because you’re spending, you’re investing your time, money and working with somebody. So thanks for sharing. What would you say you want listeners to most know who are in the position where you were when you started and they can’t seem to figure this out? It seems insurmountable, it seems really hard. What would you want them to know?
Well, what you told me when we started out was that it’s not my fault. What was happening to me. Because I was kind of blaming myself too. When you validated that I was also feeling like this couldn’t be my fault, that was kind of a big deal. Because I think people around me were seeing it as something that I was doing wrong. I would tell people like it’s not your fault that you don’t understand what’s going on because it’s really hard to understand and it’s an opaque industry.
Yeah, yeah. It’s kind of like you don’t know what you don’t know. If you don’t know where to find the information or you don’t know how to expand your own mind, then yeah, it’s not your fault. Right? You need some outside assistance at that point. Yeah. What would you say that they should watch out for, what guidance or kind of advice would you offer to people in your position as they were before and want to get to where you are now?
Yeah, I would say you’re going to get frustrated probably. You just got to be patient
Yeah, totally. I remember some of our calls going through some of the frustrating times. Whenever you go through a time when you’re really frustrated, it’s good news because it means you’re about to have a breakthrough. You’re going to have new information, it’s actually a really good place to be. But you have to be strong to look for the answers to get out of that frustration and be willing to see things differently. But it is probably going to happen. It’s happened to probably every single one of my clients that I can think of. At some point, they have gone through the frustration. So I would agree with that. Sorry, go ahead.
All right. When you’re frustrated, it means you’re working out the problem. So that’s painful, but you will eventually figure it out.
Yeah. You know this well, because in your line of work, that’s what you do. Right?
Yeah. Then the relief after you figure out what to do.
Yeah. Yeah, you’re like, “I get it.” It’s so much more satisfying than if it was so easy, right?
Yeah. If I’ve had some really complicated code that I’ve been working through, then at some point, I realized where the little tiny problem is, sometimes it’s just the silliest little thing. Sometimes I’m untangling this web. But once it’s over, it feels great.
Yeah, that’s another really good way to describe coaching. It’s kind of like there’s just this little shift or this little thing that’s not in the right spot. That sometimes you just have to identify or you have to get some other eyes on it or something. Then once you have that, it’s like a little one degree shift. Then things can start moving from there. Yeah, that’s another really good way to describe it. Yeah. So yeah, so then so then you’ve had these two competing job offers, trying to figure out which one you want to take. How did you kind of achieve that and have them happening at the same time?
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Well, at that point, I think I had figured out the interviews. I had this one really good interview about a month and a half ago. With that one, I was able to about halfway through get her to start talking about, like the pain points. So she wasn’t really leading the interview anymore. It was like I started leading it a little bit and then she was. So it was like a back and forth, which was really ideal.
Then I got a call from their recruiter, their internal recruiter. She said that it was between me and another guy, and the other guy got it because he already works in that same industry, whereas I’m coming from a startup. So they thought he would transition into it better than me, but they still really liked me. They wanted me to apply to future roles. I think it was the attitude that I had after hearing that really caused the success later. It was like being tested. I had to feel like this is okay. I got super close. I’m probably going to be able to do it again eventually. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Such a good mindset to take, right? That was a choice. That’s the thing, people don’t realize that you choosing that mindset was a choice because somebody in your exact same situation after that could have said, “Oh, I was so close. What’s the point? This sucks. Now what? Oh, I’m going to have to start that whole process again, I’m going to have to do all that again. For what?” Right? It’s so easy to go in that other direction, right? But you, after knowing how to rewire your own mind and move in that positive direction, the thought that you chose was so much more helpful, right? Because then it just helps you continue on right away.
Then you don’t lose any time being in that kind of limbo, where you’re like, “Oh, this didn’t work out.” Right? So yeah, I really wanted to highlight that because it’s so important that we see like you chose that thought. It wasn’t something that everybody chooses. That’s one of the big reasons why I think it takes people so long is because they spend a lot of time in the disappointment. What do you think helped you? That thought, but also just when we were catching up, your mindset is just automatically choosing positive thoughts that serve you now after the work that we did together. Do you have any tricks or anything that you use to do that or do you think it was just kind of intrinsically taking it on from the coaching?
Yeah, I think it was just from having all this coaching and continuing on afterwards. It’s continuing to make that effort, it stuck with me. So now my brain is different.
Yeah. Totally.
It’s a lot easier for me to make that choice.
Yeah, absolutely. We know that you can do hard things, like you have solved super hard problems before, done a lot of things you’ve never done before. Still, something I really want to share with listeners is that you could have done a lot. You could have really good accomplishments and like these degrees, like Michael has and still struggle with the job hunt process or the interviewing process. That doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you. It just means you haven’t learned, like as Michael was saying, you haven’t learned how it works yet or have an understanding of this particular process. That’s the thing that they don’t teach you in school, like you said.
Yeah, they don’t teach you how to fail. Because when you fail in school, everybody knows about it. The teachers marks those parts. It’s kind of discourages you from trying anything because you’re afraid you’re going to fail.
Yeah, it’s like a bad thing.
Most people are deathly afraid of failing.
Yeah. My most successful clients, that’s the thing they learned, right? The first thing is like, “Okay, go. Keep going, keep going. Right?” Not being afraid to put themselves out there. Yeah, and that’s not
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something you struggled with was trying to be perfect. That’s something a lot of my clients struggle with is they’re like, “Oh, I can’t. I need to prepare for this interview.” We did do some work on your stories and stuff like that. But what does your interview prep process look like now, now that you’ve done all this work?
Well, before any interviewing, I reviewed the stories and just made sure that I remembered them. At this point, I don’t think about what questions they apply to. I just make sure that I I know them because it’ll come up in my head. Once I hear a question, I’ll know what story applies to it.
Yeah, yeah. I remember we went through that process when we were working together, and I had that big document. I was just like, we went through them together, and you told them, and then you kind of quizzed yourself to look at the question and be like, “Okay, I’m going to tell that one. I’m going to tell that one. I’m going to tell that one.” So that must have stuck with you too.
Yeah, that wasn’t a good place to start and rehearsing them was really good, and having a few people to rehearse them with just so that they were in my head. But now, I don’t really have to prepare anymore. I can just go into it. As long as I know, I have a basic idea of what they want. I get that from the job title and the job description. So as long as I review that, I know what they want generally, then I can ask them the right questions.
Also has to involve a trust in yourself, right, being like, you have to have some sort of thought about yourself that implies that you trust yourself to come up with the answers, right? Instead of having to feel like you have to memorize a script or something. How do you do that?
Maybe for a few interviews, you’ll have to go off of your script. But once you get used to it, you don’t have to do that anymore.
Yeah, because you just remember them and you trust yourself that you know the information that you need to know. Right?
Yeah, because that’s what happened to me, so I should know.
Well, that’s the thing too though. You didn’t beat yourself up. You’re like, “Oh, this was a silly thing. Like everyone should have known it.” But then you just learned it and then moved on. That’s the best way to do it. Right? Evaluating and just continuing on neutrally instead of beating yourself up for not knowing something that you weren’t asked before.
This time, the tough part was the technical interviews. I hadn’t really had those before. What happened with those was when I had a really bad one, I kept track of what questions I got stuck on. Then I looked them what they were asking about so that I could know it for the next time.
What did you think about yourself after that happened? When you were like, “Oh, I didn’t know that.” What thought process led you to evaluate and improve like that?
Well, the questions I was getting right most of the time were Python questions, but then SQL kept coming up. I understand SQL, but I don’t have enough experience to just be able to answer those questions. So I was just thinking, “Well, I need to do more work on this.” So I told my partners about this. They decided to give me some more responsibility with a database so that I can learn more SQL and do more queries. That helped a lot. So I was able to answer those questions a lot better.
Yeah. So you just kind of addressed the problem. You were like, “Okay.” It sounds like you just did it really neutrally. There wasn’t emotion attached or like judgment or beating yourself up or anything like that. You were just like, “Okay, this is what I need to do. I’m going to go do it.” Then success comes. Yeah, it’s kind of the formula, right?
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Yeah. It didn’t take as long as I thought it would to figure it out. Because you just have to look it up and then have someplace to actually try it out. So if you want to learn databases, you need to have a database with some kind of useful data in it and then you can play with it. Or if you’re learning programming, just have a project and actually work on getting it done. I know it can take a lot of time, it’s worth it because then you have something that you could even show employers.
Yeah. Again, looking at it from the best point of view possible, right? To be able to be like, yeah, because people could easily be like, “Oh, this is so much work, I have to go do this.” Something I also noticed about you was that you really got into the process and just went all in and then it started to enjoy it after you stopped wanting it to happen faster, just started enjoying with the way that you approach problems today and your jobs and in your career. But also like the same with the job search, like it is a process and it is going to take understanding and mastery. That’s something that you were not afraid to lean into. Can you talk about your mindset there?
Yeah. I think I could explain it with this novel I read a while ago, it’s Starship Troopers. The movie is not very good, but the novel is really good. So the main character, he joins the military to be in the space navy. When he’s doing basic training, he’s really hating it because you have to do all this work and the exercise is really difficult. You have to get yelled at by all these people. But there was a point in it where the character stopped hating it and started feeling like a soldier. He started to enjoy all of the painful experiences he was going through because he knew that he was a soldier. So I think reading that, it kind of helped me because I realized that going through this process at some point, I saw what was going on and I started to enjoy it.
Yeah, exactly, like, “Well, this is what I’m going to be doing anyway.” I think you have to resolve yourself to like, “I’m going to be in this and get this done no matter what. So I might as well figure out a way to enjoy it.”
Yeah. You start identifying with your journey.
Yeah, exactly. That’s a really good way to put it. Yeah. I’ve heard other clients talk about it similarly to that too. But it kind of has to be like that. Otherwise, you’re just pushing your way there. When it’s not feeling aligned, and it won’t always feel aligned. But when it’s not feeling aligned all the time, that’s when you start to get repeatedly frustrated. So when you can lean into like, “Okay, I’m understanding I’m getting this,” and then that’s when the results come faster.” Counterintuitive, but how it works. But yeah, thanks for sharing that. I’m sure listeners will love to hear that book recommendation as well.
Oh yeah. It’s a great book.
Awesome. Awesome. Well, was there anything else? Any last things you wanted to share? I think those are all the questions I had for you.
Well, I guess I like sum it all up, you just have to accept that this is the journey you’re on. You have to learn how to love it. You’re going to have to accept that it’s painful at first. But once you’ve gotten used to putting in the effort, it becomes a lot easier and it becomes fun.
Yeah, it’s such a good way to put it.
Once you realize that you’re adding value to people’s lives, it actually becomes a lot more enjoyable, just to enjoy the fact that you’re adding value.
Yeah. Also taking the focus, like you just mentioned, a really key point there is taking the focus off yourself and onto them. Right?
That’s true.
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Yeah. Then that kind of releases the pressure as well of our own insecurities because when we’re focusing on ourselves, it’s very difficult to add as much value as we’re capable of adding. So another really great point to leave it with. All right, Michael. Well, thank you so much for being here and sharing so generously with everybody your journey. Congratulations on your success. Thank you for being an amazing client.
Well, thanks, Natalie. It was nice to be on the podcast.
Yeah. Great to have you. All right. Bye, everyone.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Get a Six Figure Job You Love Podcast. If you’re ready to dive deeper into your career mindset and start creating bigger, more impactful results in your career, join me at www.NatalieFisher.ca/GetStarted. I’ll see you over there.


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