Ep #107: Self-Advocacy Debt with Jamie Lee

Get Six Figure Job You Love | Self-Advocacy Debt with Jamie Lee


Get Six Figure Job You Love | Self-Advocacy Debt with Jamie Lee

Jamie Lee

If you’ve ever been hesitant to ask for a raise, afraid, or generally not sure how to go about asking for more money, this episode is for you. I have the amazing Jamie Lee on the show today to talk all about the concept of self-advocacy debt and why understanding this is the missing link in asking for what you’re worth.


Jamie Lee is an executive coach for smart women who hate office politics. She helps her clients get paid more or promoted without throwing anyone else under the bus by coaching from an intersectional feminist perspective. She created today’s concept of self-advocacy debt because she realized it isn’t just tactics and skills that get her clients a promotion, but they need mindset tools to help communicate what they want and generate the confidence to advocate for themselves.


Tune in this week to discover the power of advocating for yourself. We’re discussing what self-advocacy debt is, how it’s keeping you earning less money than you’re worth, and Jamie is sharing what you can do to start separating your self-worth from your professional value, so you can start building the confidence to ask for what you want from your employer.



Are you tired of going from job interview to job interview and not getting an offer? I’ve put together a free download that breaks down the reasons this might be happening. It’s called The 8 Reasons You’re Not Getting Hired and I will help you figure it out. Click here to get it!




What You’ll Learn from this Episode:


  • What self-advocacy debt is and how understanding it is going to help you stop underearning.
  • Why so many people believe the self-belief thought errors that lead to self-advocacy debt.
  • How the gender pay gap still persists in 2022 and why it is compounded by self-advocacy debt.
  • Where Jamie sees women trying to justify and cope with their self-advocacy debt.
  • How we’ve been conditioned to think our value as a human being is tied to our net worth.
  • Why you’re never going to get a raise without asking, no matter how much monetary value you create for a company.
  • The common signs that you’re currently living in self-advocacy debt.
  • How to start generating the confidence required to start advocating for yourself, begin paying off your self-advocacy debt, and ask for more.


Listen to the Full Episode:







Featured on the Show:


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  • Jamie Lee: Website | Instagram | LinkedIn | Facebook | YouTube
  • Carol Frohlinger



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This is the Get a 6-Figure Job You Love podcast. This is episode 107, Self-Advocacy Debt with Jamie Lee.
Hey there, welcome to the Get a 6-Figure Job You Love podcast. I’m your host, Natalie Fisher. I’m a certified career mindset coach who also happens to want to skip all the BS and get to what it really takes to create real results for you and your career. On this podcast you will create real mindset shifts that will lead to big results and big changes in your career and your income. No fluff here. If you want to get a six figure job you love and create real concrete results in your industry and make a real impact you’re in the right place. Are you ready? Let’s go. Jamie Lee is a fellow coach, she’ll tell you all about what she does on this episode. She was a guest coach in my program when I was on maternity leave. For those of you who don’t know I had a baby a couple of months ago at the time of recording this so she’s probably three, four months old now.
But I invited Jamie Lee into my program to coach my students for me and she did an amazing job. She has coached me, she’s offered me upgrades. She’s fantastic and yeah, I just want you to enjoy this episode and the concept of self-advocacy debt. This is for anybody who has ever been hesitant to ask for a raise, been afraid kind of not sure how to go about it. This is going to help you out with that and Jamie works specifically with women and I work with men and women but Jamie works specifically with women. So this episode is geared to the thinking that women have more than men but I believe that men have it too sometimes, because I work with a lot of people and I see the common patterns. So enjoy this episode. Okay, let’s do it. So we are here today with a special guest Jamie Lee. Jamie was a guest coach inside my program and she has a lot of insight to share today.
We’re talking about self-advocacy debt which is a concept that Jamie has created. Jamie, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about the concept?
Hello everyone my name is Jamie Lee, I’m an executive coach for smart women who hate office politics. I help them get promoted and better paid without throwing anyone under the bus and self-advocacy is a concept that I created because I started out helping women negotiate their salaries and then I figured out in that process that it wasn’t just tactics and skills that they needed. They needed mindset tools to be able to generate the self confidence to advocate for themselves. But what I’ve noticed is that yes, there is a gender pay gap. Right? All of my clients are women and studies have found that the pay gap still persists in 2022 when we are recording this podcast and yes, there are structural issues. Structural sexism, racism because women of color, mostly black and brown women their pay gap is much wider than white women, Asian women. But how to close that we also have to think at an individual level, what is possible?
What can we do to help close that and I have noticed that in my 10 years of helping women improve their income, that the pay gap can be compounded by the self-advocacy debt.
Self-advocacy debt is when you are under earning your potential. Under earning what you want to be making because you are not advocating for yourself. You are not communicating what you want, you’re not communicating how you are winning. How you are achieving wins and succeeding, making contributions in the workplace.
So good. Yeah, and actually so much has just come up from what you just said. It’s like the debt is when you don’t do that for a long time, if you don’t do that for years. It’s like you could have been making all that money if you’d just been asking for it and been believing in yourself to earn it and I just had a client the other day that I was coaching and she made a huge jump from 45K to a 100K and she was like, “I’m still not like confident that I deserve that money.” Even though she’s been in the role for almost a year and she does want to get a raise but she’s still struggling with that, I’m not sure that I deserve that. So it
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just all comes kind of full circle to like the word debt is like you owe yourself. Would that be correct? A correct way to say it?
Exactly, yes.
Okay, cool. So that’s kind of the biggest problem you’ve noticed, I think that we covered that. So how do you notice people kind of trying to justify this, cope with it. What do they kind of do with this present?
Well, the reason that self-advocacy debt happens is that we’re not telling people that we want and one of the reasons why would be that there is this I’m going to call it a thought error that you don’t deserve more money. Because we all know it’s really not about deservingness at a personal level. Does that make sense? When you say, I don’t deserve it it’s conflating self worth with the value of your contributions.
This is the mistake we all make as a society. We have been taught to think about our personal value as our net worth, what we’re making in our professional lives.
Yeah, go ahead. I think you have something-
I was going to say so much opens up when you can separate those two. Right? When you can be like, okay I’m worthy. I’m complete as I am and then anything on top of that is just the contribution that you want to make at the level that you can and then you can grow and evolve from a place of like, I am already enough. Now, what do I want to do? Versus I’m not enough I have to do all this to prove myself.
Exactly, a 100%. We agree because we are both coaches and we coach people on this all the time and listen. Separating self-worth from your work value it may be something that is an ideal. Right? The reason why I say that is because I’ve noticed that for me, I teach this to people and it’s hard to separate yourself worth from your work value. Yeah and I think to answer your question, I think that could be one of the unintentional, unconscious ways people end up justifying under earning. They’re like, well this is just me. There’s something wrong with me, there’s something broken with me. Right? I don’t deserve it. I’ve never had a break in my life.
All of the limiting stories that you’ve told yourself throughout your life gets used to justify the self-advocacy debt.
Yeah and ones that I hear a lot to kind of piggyback on that are I haven’t done enough, I haven’t achieved enough. I haven’t caught onto enough things quick enough. It’s like a perpetual not enoughness that you kind of… Then when I ask clients I’ll be like, okay well what would make it so that you can feel like enough? They don’t have a milestone. They don’t know that because it’s always just a thing they keep moving and putting into the future. So the answer is you don’t have to do anything more than you… It doesn’t matter what you do. It’s just, you are already complete and worthy as a human and then on top of that it’s like what you want to do and how you want to add value and how you want to evolve and that’s the value through the contribution that you get to create because you want to.
100%, and I could just imagine some people listening to this and they roll their eyes they’re like, okay are you sure I’m worthy? So I want to address that. Because I approach my coaching from an intersectional feminist perspective and we have to acknowledge that for millennia, for thousands of years women and
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marginalized identities like women of color in particular. We have been taught to not see ourselves as inherently valuable. We have been taught over and over again, right?
Unless you’re doing something for someone else, unless you’re putting everyone else first. Yeah. It’s like that’s where the value comes from because of the way that women have been taught and it was the same for me too. I mean my mom is from Columbia, South America. So there was a lot of that from her and then my dad’s from England. So yeah, from my heritage I see that as well. It was a lot of like, “Don’t say anything, just be quiet you don’t know enough to talk about that right now.” A lot of that happens so I can totally relate to that. What you’re saying.
Yeah. Yeah. So I think one way to address all of the limiting beliefs that will come up over and over again like doubt, like maybe I haven’t done enough. Right? Maybe I don’t deserve it. It’s just to notice that, that isn’t a conscious thought that you’ve chosen for yourself. I love that you teach intentional self-confidence, right? That’s not an intentional self-confident thought, that’s a thought we have been fed to believe and it’s also very human of us to repeat a thought we have been taught and we have unintentionally repeated over and over again. So we’re just like, okay here it is again how human of me.
I heard something the other day and in the coaching world I’ve heard a lot that a belief is a thought you repeat over and over or you think over and over and I heard it said a different way which kind of hit me from a new lens. It was like a belief is a thought that you no longer have to think because you’ve just put it aside. You’re like, yeah that’s just the truth, that’s just how it is and I feel like a lot of women that I worked with have had that. They’re like, I didn’t even know that I was being mean to myself. I didn’t even know that that’s what I was doing. So it’s not even intentional because of how ingrained it is and how normal it has been growing up with all that.
Totally. So why doesn’t it work? Why is it not helping or not serving? It seems like an obvious question but let’s dive into it anyway.
Right. At a practical level, why it doesn’t work is because when we buy into that socialization we fall into the trap of a Tiara Syndrome. Tiara Syndrome is a term that’s coined by a female scholar her name is Carol Frohlinger and Tiara Syndrome is when you assume that if you keep your head down and do good work without speaking up, without making waves, without ruffling some feathers. Right? The powers that be, the authority figures they’re supposed to be omniscient and rewards you.
They’re just supposed to do it. They’re just supposed to give you a raise without asking. Yeah.
Exactly. They’re supposed to place a tiara on your head just like in a 1990s Disney fairytale. Right?
Like Little Mermaid, she doesn’t speak but because her virtue is self-sacrifice and she’s quiet, she goes literally mute at one point and she is rewarded. Right?
So this is a Tiara Syndrome that we fall into and it doesn’t work. I had an instance where I once generated this plan. I worked in purchasing or in procurement and I came up with a plan to save the company a $100,000 and my salary at the time was $40,000 and I’m like, so much money and it was a $1,000,000 company. So I have figured, hey that’s 10% of annual revenues. That’s a lot of money. They’re for sure going to give me a raise and a promotion, so I said nothing and I got nothing in return.
They need to be shown directly. Yeah, absolutely and yeah I’ve never heard of that happening. There’s companies that have annual increases, very small annual increases but unless you actually put it in front of them and say, okay this is the value that’s brought or this is what I’ve contributed. Unless you really put it really clearly so that they find it very difficult to say no to that.
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It’s very unlikely that you’re just going to get a raise.
Exactly. I mean, I’m thinking about the clients you serve this is what you do in that resume cover letter when you reach out and when you talk about what is it that you do. That’s exactly how you make it super clear and compelling. This is the value I’m adding and this is what I want. I want to be considered for a senior account executive role or I want to be considered for this manager role. Right? You got to tell them what you want. Tell them how what you’ve done is going to translate into future potential in a way that aligns with what the company wants. Right? I mean, tell me if I’m wrong.
No, that was spot on super well said. Yeah, and exactly and it’s like when you don’t do that then you’re kind of… I’ve heard a lot of clients say things like this so if you’re listening, if this resonates with you’re not alone. But it’s things like, my work should speak for itself. Right? People should just know.
Right? I shouldn’t need to say anything. I’ve been working really hard they should see it. Right? It’s like we can’t continue to just assume that that’s going to happen after it’s 99% of the time that does not happen.
Exactly. Exactly.
So this is why it doesn’t work because unless you tell them very specifically, concretely what it is that you want. What it is that you’re capable of doing and paint a vision of how what you’re capable of doing helps them the employer achieve their goal. Right? They don’t have a reason to hire you or to promote you.
Yeah. I think it’s a big shift and the word responsibility comes to mind. It’s like it’s your responsibility to show them the value and help them to see it in every way that you can. It’s not their responsibility to just see it.
I mean it would be nice but they’re not going to go and be like, oh yeah and what did you do here and what did you do? Let’s take an interviews when people are vague. One of the reasons why people don’t get hired is they’re too vague and when they tell their stories or how they present their value and the interviewer is not going to go and ask a whole bunch of follow up questions to get that information out of you. It’s your job to present it in a way where they’re like, oh okay that makes perfect sense of course we would pay you that much.
Exactly. I love that. Exactly. You make it clear, compelling and that is how you close your self advocacy debt by advocating for the value you’re bringing in a way that makes sense for the other side.
Love it. Love it. Full circle. Perfect. Okay. So we’ve covered why it doesn’t work and then how do people when they are living in self-advocacy debt, what are some of the symptoms that they might experience. What might their day to day thoughts lives look like when they’re experiencing it?
So very common there is a sense of frustration. Sometimes they feel resentful towards the employer because they’re thinking, they should know, they should be different, they should be recognizing my value. I should have gotten promoted or I should have gotten that job. Right?
All of the shoulds actually create more frustration for you while it doesn’t change the situation.
Yeah. I should be paid more, this is not fair because other people are being paid more. I see that a lot too. People are like, well I should be paid more like my colleague who doesn’t even work as hard as me
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or isn’t as smart as me is making more somewhere else. Yeah. I’ve seen people too where they do ask for what they want and then they keep getting told no and they stay in the same place and that frustration and resentment just kind of sits.
Do you have any thoughts on how to proceed when that’s the case?
Well, in addition to that I want to add what a lot of women do is they also ruminate while overworking because we… This we talked about earlier, we have been socialized to think that our value comes from what we do for other people or that we need to prove ourselves. We’re not inherently valuable and so then in order to make up for this they end up constantly checking their email or constantly thinking about work even when they’re-
Working extra hours.
Working extra hours and thinking about it and feeling frustrated about it because it all still feels very personal. Right? Because your self worth is not separated from your work value. So my advice for that is first we got to have a clear understanding of what value actually is.
Yeah, love that.
Right? Because value doesn’t come from you overworking, value doesn’t come from time or effort actually. Value is what is beneficial, right? What are the ideas? How are you enhancing or moving the mission forward for the company? Right? So the first step you got to do is you got to start unbiasing your own perspective about how you assess the value you bring.
Yeah. So good and I often have that too where clients are like, I don’t know what my value is. I don’t really feel like I have contributed anything and I’m always like, oh my goodness there’s a reason why you’re getting paid. Some people are really disconnected from their own value and I think it stems from everything we’ve been talking about because they just think it comes from doing more, showing up.
For more time or taking on extra things or just being the person whose like, yeah I’ll take on everything and I’ll do everything.
Yeah. I like to say it comes in a corporate perspective if it comes down to the results in the end but also all the milestones up to the results.
Yes. And I know you walk people through a very specific framework. I know you have great questions and step by step that you offer in your program and here’s something that I want to add which is that… Especially when it comes to getting paid and getting paid better. One thing that we often don’t talk about is that the money that you get paid is not necessarily representative of the total value of your contributions.
It’s normally not. Normally when I add it up for my clients I’ll be like they’re actually getting a really good deal having you working there.
Right, and this doesn’t mean to say that you’re getting a raw deal or the short end of the stick. I’m just saying, this is how capitalism works. You buy an iPhone for let’s say $1000 or… I forget how much I paid for it, but I think it’s about a 1000 now.
Yeah. Yeah. I would say.
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Yeah but the total value of having an iPhone, the utility, the convenience, the like, oh I have an iPhone, I feel great about that, that sense of like… I guess it’s ego.
But in any case the total value of having an iPhone, it does email, social media, high definition video, video editing. The value exceeds a $1,000 by at least multiple of 10, right? When you think about the total utility and the total convenience factor.
Well we paid a $1000 and that’s-
I feel that way too about iPhones but not everyone would agree.
But no, I mean this actually kind of just stemmed another thought in my mind about how some people are going to see the value in your work and what you offer as far as when you go to be hired somewhere and some people are not and it doesn’t mean that the value doesn’t exist. Right?
It just means that the value is in the eye of the beholder.
Also, it’s like it’s just not a fit.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah and I mean, just like the example of iPhones it’s like we have the people who are obsessed with iPhones and just love them and that’s me. I have an iPhone, I have a Mac, I have everything. I’m an Apple person but the people who aren’t are not necessarily going to see the same value and they’re like I would never pay that much money for that. But it doesn’t mean that it’s not valuable because so many other people do think it is.
Yeah. So to address your question I wanted to say, you want to assess the total value of your contributions and like I said the first step is you got to unbias your perspective. But also just know that this is how businesses, organization, capitalism works. You get paid a portion of the total value. Just like you were talking about how you do the exercise with your clients. The pay that they get is just the slice of that pie, the pie of the total value.
Yeah. Yeah. Totally and I think when we break it down like that the response from my clients is, great they feel really good about being able to offer that value and have the organization get a lot more from it because they feel like they’re doing a really good job. They feel like they have contributed more than they’re making but it also makes them feel empowered to ask for more. Right?
It’s like, oh okay well asking for this bit more is not a problem because I’m contributing so much more than that.
It’s like you’re helping make the pie bigger and you’re just asking for a bigger slice. It doesn’t seem like a hardship when it comes-
Sound like that. Yeah. Awesome. So let’s talk a little bit about how to ask for more and once you kind of untangle the mindset and you understand your value, then what would you do if you’re in a position where you know you should be asking for more. What are your thoughts on that?
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My thoughts are that first you get to decide. You get to decide how much more you want to make and I can just imagine some people say, but I don’t know what’s reasonable. I don’t know what the pay range is, right?
So of course you want to balance that with doing some research, having conversations with people, with recruiters. I know Natalie used to work in HR, people like you a great asset. If you had a friend who was doing a job search and they were like, hey Natalie what have you seen to be a reasonable pay range for IT consultant? I know you work with IT consultants, would you just tell me if… I’m thinking about asking for a 100,000 and would you say that’s totally bonkers or would you say that’s kind of within range. That’s something that you can do, that’s a conversation that you can initiate with people in your network.
Yeah, absolutely. Another thing that I’d add to that is that there’s the pay bands and then there’s people who make way more than those.
Because they’re just adding more value than the average IT person or the average assistant. So there’s always room for that and I’ve been one of those people who was like, okay I’m going to add extra value here and then I’m going to… The position is going to kind of morph because you’re adding value. But when you’re thinking at a higher level than-
I earned I think 80K as an assistant or something and if I look on pay scale it’ll tell me the most you can make is 45K and I’m like, well that’s not true because I know that I did more. It was because I was like, okay well I know exactly that I’m going to save this person like five hours a week by looking at their schedule or figuring this out for them and five hours a week to them that they have extra time, like to the CEO is worth a lot more. So it’s like when you-
Tens of thousands of dollars.
Yeah. So when you can kind of… Anybody can do this in their role, they can start thinking about how they can add more value. So the baseline looking on asking people and looking at salaries online that’s a good baseline, but you can always expand from there.
Yes and that’s exactly why making a decision, right? You decided, I’m going to add more value. You decided I’m going to make $80,000. Right?
So you can do the research, you can talk to people but at the end of the day you get to decide and one of my mentors said, “Your quality of work is high.” Right? You get to decide that.
You also get to hold yourself to that high standard of excellence which a lot of people who are listening to his podcast they already do.
Right? So then you just tell yourself my pay is going to reflect that.
Yes. Yeah.
I’m not going to ask for the middle of the range, I’m not going to ask for the low end of the range. I can ask for the high end of the range or like you said exceed that range.
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Yeah, absolutely. I think the thing to take away from that is don’t limit yourself and you might be thinking if you’re listening too like, I could never get that and it’s like give it a minute. Just be like, if it were possible how could I right? Just kind of open it up because a lot of people are just like, no that’s the range I would never expect to get more than that, that’s just what it is. So I would just encourage people to kind of open up their mind a bit and just sit with it a bit because you never know what you can come up with. Also when I work with my clients they don’t really know, they don’t have a concept of the value that they bring which is why going through that is really important. Probably right now most people don’t have a very clear idea of the value that they’re actually contributing, most of my clients don’t.
They’re very surprised when it’s reflected back. They’re like, wow that makes total sense. I understand, I didn’t see it before though.
Yes. So everyone who’s listening to this I want you to consider that you’re adding more value than you think you are.
Yeah, almost guaranteed.
Yeah, we guarantee it.
Natalie, for sure. We guarantee you are adding more value than you think you are and in order to secure that higher pay, whether you are in a job or getting a new job. Right? Now it’s just a matter of curiosity and better understanding what is considered of value to your employer. Of course for you Natalie when you were an assistant to… I’m just going to assume it was an executive.
Yeah. For an executive or busy executive their time is highly valuable. They have fixed amount of time and they have a lot of decisions to make. Yeah, and so you just want to think from the employer’s perspective what is going to really compel them in terms of value.
Yeah absolutely, and thinking about what they need and asking them too. Having those conversations with them about what would exceed your expectations in this role and I’ve had clients who have actually they attribute the questions that they ask in the interview that has actually gotten them hired. Because they will be asking things like, what would exceed your expectations for someone in the role? And they’re like, wow no one’s ever asked us that before.
Yeah, I love that. I love that. Yeah.
Awesome. Okay. So what skills do you think people need or where do you think they need to start in order to start shifting their mindset in this direction?
So the number one skill is self validation.
Love it. Nailed it. Yeah.
Yeah, right? It’s the sister skill to intentional self-confidence. Right?
Yeah. Lets stop waiting for people to give you permission.
Yes. Because you’re more valuable and your work is more valuable than you think and the first person who needs to see and recognize that is you.
For this reason in my one-on-one coaching program every session we start with celebrations we’re like, okay even if it’s small, even if you feel it’s insignificant, how might you able to give yourself acknowledgement? Right? How might you be able to celebrate that you are growing and moving things.
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For moving the needle on projects even if it’s like excellent self care that allows you to show up the best way that you can to your work.
Yeah, so good. It’s so underrated to celebrate those small successes, to celebrate any kind of growth. It’s super underrated and we don’t do it unless a coach is actually kind of getting it out of you all the time. I remember I never used to do it and it’s changes so much of how you work and how you move forward and it’s a little chance to validate yourself every time you notice something that you did that worked well or an idea that you had or anything, any little thing. Yeah. So with all this say somebody’s shifted the mindset, they understand their value, they’ve gone along the whole program. What results can be expected? So we talked about the before at the beginning, what does the after look like?
The after looks like getting promoted, getting better paid, getting hired at your dream job. Closing yourself advocacy debt and growing the muscle of advocating for yourself because you know that advocating for what you want adds value. That it is in fact an act of service-
Say more about that. Yeah, say more about that.
Yeah. The reason why so many people especially women do not advocate for themselves is because we have been taught the lie that if we were to celebrate, acknowledge ourselves and ask for recognition we’re being arrogant, we’re being selfish and how dare a woman be selfish. Right? This holds us back. This makes us feel terrible about advocating for ourselves but we don’t know that we are already adding value and just pointing out how our contributions are creating positive impact. How it is leading to results that the employer wants. Take for example, I’m thinking about a client of mine who is a software engineer and she closes Jira bugs. She opens them, she fixes the code and then the Jira story is closed. Right? That’s valuable and for her she’s like it’s just the thing that I got to do.
It’s just my job no big deal.
This is my job. If I close this one bug there will be like five more, no big deal. But then when we pause and think about what is the downstream effect of that?
Yeah, exactly. I always like to ask the question or have my clients ask themselves the question, what would happen if you were not there? If you remove yourself from the whole operation what would happen? And the answers normally there’s going to be some sort of a catastrophe or something’s going to get slowed down or there’s going to be some sort of a problem because they were there filling a role for a reason. Yeah, talking a little bit more about advocating for yourself is an act of service.
Yeah, just a bunch of things came to my head around that. It’s like for me it feels like it’s an act of service because not only are you elevating yourself and kind of showing what you’re doing. Because when you’re compensated better you are going to expand more. Right?
You’re going raise up to a new level. What else I’m thinking, people might have trouble understanding how advocating for yourself is an active service. What are some other reasons why it’s an active service?
Yes. Even a step before they actually get better paid and are more motivated or adding bigger value. The act of pointing out how your skills, experiences are going to help the employer achieve their mission and goals. How what you bring is the secret sauce to creating results that the employer is looking for, very specifically concretely as you talked about. Right? That is very valuable, that helps your employer whether potential or current. They’re like, oh this is good to know. Right?
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We’re hiring managers. That information when you are able to articulate how you have specifically created results, which means that you can help the potential employer create their specific results. They’re like, oh I know how to make this hiring decision better.
Love it.
The decision is easier now.
Love it.
Right? That is a value, that is service that you help them do their jobs better.
So good. Yeah.
I’ve had clients who when they think about and they really advocate for the promotion and the raise that they want they often get praised by their bosses. They’re like, thank you for advocating for yourself this way this is helpful. I had a client who was told that she was not technical enough to get promoted and she’s like, okay let’s just get curious about this. Let’s just engage in a conversation and see… She did it so well, she gracefully addressed the possibility of there being unconscious bias and that was very brave and that was an act of service because the manager he was grateful. He’s like, “I’m so glad that you pointed out blind spots that I didn’t even know I had and I wanted to have this pointed out to me.” I’m sure not every conversation goes like that but in this case because she advocated and she braved this difficult conversation there was value created.
It also shows your client got to see what kind of culture they were running. The person was open minded, they open to that. Yeah.
Yeah, and she got to influence that culture.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly and now she has paved the way for others to come after and that bias has been hopefully eliminated and that person had a really… Because I have clients who have done the same things and it’s like, yeah that was really brave of you to say that. But then they do make everyone think and then sometimes policies can be changed and the whole departments can be shifted around because people had the guts to ask those questions.
Exactly. It’s like the butterfly effect. Right?
There’s a butterfly that flaps its wing somewhere and because that butterfly flapped is wing there’s a whole ripple effect of change that can happen and I’ve seen this happen at even people who don’t have high level positions. I worked at a tech startup where there was an intern who asked for transportation reimbursement and this was a small company with 20 people and the founder he’s like, sure you can have it and if I’m going to give it to you I have to give it to everyone else. So the entire organization-
Yeah. Great example. Yeah.
Got their transportation fees reimbursed because this one intern advocated for it.
Amazing. To contrast all of this it’s like none of those changes could happen if everybody was just saying to themselves, oh I better not say anything. I better not ask for more, I better just keep my head down and keep working, they’ll notice. None of these big changes would ever happen if that’s how we were continuing to operate. So this is huge.
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Yeah. Amazing. Okay. Anything else you want to add? This has been a great conversation.
Yeah. I’m really passionate about helping women generate the self-confidence and self-advocacy skills because yes the world is not perfect it is deeply flawed and every day we can encounter disheartening news about women in the workplace. Especially in the wake of the pandemic and we don’t have to be able to change the whole thing, it’s okay. Even if it is affecting change at a small personal scale it all adds up, there is a compounding effect that happens. Not just in you closing your wage gap but just like we talked about this butterfly effect. The compounding effect can happen if you brave yourself to advocate, to speak up and… Okay. So one last thing that I want to add is that advocating for yourself does not mean that you are being confrontational. It doesn’t mean that you’re being aggressive, it only means that you are braving a conversation.
Yeah, and another one that I get is I don’t want to be arrogant or I don’t want to appear greedy or whatever. For listeners, they’ll have their own version of this but that something is probably stopping them and yeah. I hear that a lot and the way that I address it is I say, well it’s true isn’t it? If you take it just as facts it’s a matter of fact that you added this value in this way and saved this amount of time or money. It’s just a fact, it’s not about being arrogant or being… There’s a good distinction between arrogance and just being confident. So if anybody has those thoughts you know what to do now.
Yes. Because to be arrogant is to put other people down but when you advocate yourself as an act of service like the way we talked about, it helps other people to see oh I can do that too.
Absolutely. Yeah.
It’s imperative that you do it, right? It’s a disservice not to do it.
To yourself, to other women or people of marginalized identities. Or people who are just like, oh I didn’t even know that’s possible.
Yeah. The change has to start somewhere.
Amazing. Okay. So why don’t you tell us where people can find you and what you offer?
Yes. So people can find me at jamieleecoach.com. It’s spelled J-A-M-I-E, L-E-E C O-A-C-H.com. I’m on Instagram, I’m also on LinkedIn and I post daily and I offer a six month one-on-one coaching program for women who want to get promoted and better paid without throwing anyone under the bus, even if they hate office politics.
Love it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here Jamie and for having this conversation with me. If one person has a shift from it it’ll be worth it and thank you so much.
Thank you so much Natalie, I really enjoyed this conversation too.
Me too. Okay. Bye. If I were to sum it up I would say the most common thing people come to me with is, I’m going on interview after interview, after interview and I’m not getting the offer. What am I doing wrong? So I’ve put together a freebie where you can get this download completely free. It has the eight reasons that this is happening and I break down each reason very specifically and how to fix it. So to grab that download the link is in the show notes. You can click on that link, you just have to enter your information. It’s called the 8 Reasons You’re Not Getting Hired and I will help you figure that out. I will see you in the freebie. Okay, talk to you soon.


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