Page 1 of 14
Hello. Welcome to the Get a 6-Figure Job You Love podcast. This is episode 71: The Key Shift Jamie Made to Negotiate a 15K Raise Plus Perks, and So Much More.
Hey there. Welcome to the Get a 6-Figure Job You Love podcast. I’m your host, Natalie Fisher. I’m a certified career mindset coach who also happens to want to skip all the BS and get to what it really takes to create real results for you and your career. On this podcast, you will create real mindset shifts that will lead to big results and big changes in your career and your income. No fluff here. If you want to get a six figure job you love and create real concrete results in your industry and make a real impact, you’re in the right place. Are you ready? Let’s go.
Hello. So in this interview we’re going to go into a lot of stuff. I don’t just like a quick testimonial video, I like to really dive in and talk to my clients for a long time because it’s so fun. We cover not just the shift, which she’s going to get into, but the little shifts along the way. What I want you to listen to most is her confidence in her voice when she’s speaking in this interview and how you can feel that. You can just feel the confidence that’s coming through her words. That’s not something that you can give someone a script to do. This was internal rewiring that she did that was able to get her this result. And not just was it the extra money which allowed her to pay for her son’s college tuition, it wasn’t just that, it’s how much she loves what she’s doing now and how much of a different person she’s now become with these realizations of what she’s really capable of. So I hope you enjoy this interview. Without further ado, let’s play it.
Hello. Hello. Welcome, everybody, to this week’s episode. We have another very special guest on today. Her name is Jamie Kernohan, and she is the Brand Director at Neighborly now. She’s going to talk to us about her journey, how she got where she is, and all the things in between. Jamie, why don’t you start by telling us a little bit about how you got here and anything else you want to share about you?
All right. Well, Natalie, I’m so happy to be here today. You have been such a great help. I’ve come to Natalie for help as I was interviewing, but I also own my own business. I do have my own marketing company, GVC Marketing, and I was doing that for about two years while interviewing for a brand director role was what I was looking for. I have about 20 years in marketing. I have my MBA from UT Dallas. I’ve worked in agency side, client side, and so I was trying to find that unique position that I knew was out there but I was just having trouble finding. Natalie was great help in helping me see where my gaps were.
Awesome. Well, I’m so excited to be here and have this conversation. I’ve got so many things to ask you.
Okay, great.
Yeah, so the first thing I wanted to dive into was kind of like… Because you’re obviously very smart, very successful woman, you’ve got a lot of stuff that you’ve already achieved. Where were you feeling that you… And what was the straw that was like, “I need some help. I’ve got some stuff I need to get some help with and I’m not figuring it out on my own.”
Yeah. It was just really difficult to find the right job that I wanted. I knew in my mind what I wanted. I wanted a brand director position, and at the time, it seemed that social media and digital marketing was really prevalent in the marketing industry and they were parsing up what I used to do as a brand manager. When I had that role, I worked for Mary Kay for six and a half years, and I was a brand manager. And so, I did so many of the things that now marketing the industry has parsed up into different roles.
So it was very difficult I found, or at least I thought it was, difficult to find a brand manager role. And so, I was struggling with trying to learn all the aspects of all the different channels of marketing and trying to keep up with that. Because every time I’d interview, I wouldn’t have the one thing, you know?
Page 2 of 14
Yeah.
I was always missing for one thing. Like, “Oh my gosh, what one thing am I not going to have this time?” Right?
Yeah.
So that’s where I thought, “Okay, I’m not interviewing well or something.” I’d go on interviews, I’d get to the third round, and then they wouldn’t choose me. So that’s why I was thinking, “All right, there’s something doing, and I’m not catching on.” So that’s why I came to you, like, “Help me with what I’m not seeing.”
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Totally, yeah. And so, what did you feel was the shift? Because you obviously didn’t have to go and learn all those things to be able to get what you wanted.
Yeah.
So where would you say the shift was where you realized, “Oh, there’s something else. It’s in my interviewing, it’s not in actually going back to get the one other thing.”?
Right. When I exhausted myself… Because at first I thought, “Okay. All right, I’m going to go back and learn email marketing. Okay, I’m going to go back and learn social media. Okay, I’m going to go back and get my Google analytics certification. Okay. Okay. Okay.” So all these times, every time the one thing I missed, I’d go back and go, “Okay.” And then I just got fed up with that. I got fed up with the “Well, you needed the one thing.” I’d go, “Well, if I stood on my left foot and raised my right hand, that’s how tricky this is.” So I got fed up with the request, right, of knowing everything, and I just said, “Okay.”
So clearly, it’s not knowing it. Isn’t the thing, right?
Yes.
Clearly my talking about what I did know was not coming across as knowledgeable enough. I think that’s where we worked on my stories, so talked about it. Because I would say in the interview, “Oh, yeah, I can do that.”
Yeah. Yeah.
But I wasn’t going into, “Yes, I can do that because I’ve done this and the results were this and this and this.”
Exactly.
It was just like, “Yeah, I can do that.”
Yeah, totally. I’m so glad you brought this up because you’re totally not the first person to think this, right? A lot of people are like, “Oh I need to go back and get my… In whatever industry the listeners are in, it’s like a lot of people are like, “Well, I need my business analyst certification. Now I need my data analyst certification-
[crosstalk 00:06:28].
… Now I need my agile. Now I need my scrum master-
[crosstalk 00:06:31].
… Now I need this. Now I need that.” And so, it’s a very easy trap to fall into. At the end of the day it’s like, “Yeah, you can have 100 of these things and you could still end up with the same kind of interviewing block that’s going on.” And you nailed it exactly where you’re like, “Clearly what I do have and my ability to figure things out from there isn’t coming through.” And that was the blocker.
My next question was leading to the shift that you made in actually understanding the impact and the value that you have had at Mary Kay, for example, where you had this tremendous success but just
Page 3 of 14
weren’t really seeing it. Can you talk about what shifted in your mind at that point where you were like, “Oh, I really do have a lot of value to offer, and I’m totally fine to talk about it. I have this example and all that.” Can you elaborate on that?
Yeah, so I think it was the conversation we had where you said, “So when you did this project… ” So I was on many projects in that role as with other roles, but that one was just top of mind, because again, it was in that brand channel so that’s why we talked about it a lot, because that’s what I wanted to be in. But talking about that project and what kind of money did that project equate for Mary Kay and what results did I bring about. I had brought about quite a few results not only monetarily, but how the sales force perceived us, et cetera, et cetera. So it was interesting to hear you talk about from an outsider instead of my stories to myself of, “Oh, well, that wasn’t a big deal. That wasn’t-
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
… That wasn’t anything.” But then when you said it, “But didn’t that make millions?” Is what you said to me ,and I go, “Yeah. Yeah, I did.”
Yeah. It technically did, yeah. It’s funny because you were in this work, you’re doing it every day, you know you produce these results, your brain is wired to produce results and do this thing, and you’re just like, “Oh yeah, whatever. I can do… ”
“It was no big deal. That’s what I did every day.” But you go, “No, no, no, no, no. That equated to millions of dollars. Therefore, what you did was very important.” When I realized that importance, that really flipped the switch in my brain to talk about what I did. In fact, recently in presenting at a conference, I took more time to talk about those KPIs. And when I did that, the audience went, “Oh. Wow.” And it’s very difficult for me to talk about myself and my successes, right? I just want you to know it, I don’t want to have to tell you.
Yeah, you’re not alone.
I don’t know if that’s a woman thing or whatever thing it is, but I have it, I have it badly, but you have been very instrumental in getting that out and then making me make a point of it. This has been beneficial, in the last six months, truly beneficial for me to get the money I wanted, the title I wanted, this job that I have. It was very, very crucial because it changed the way I communicated, and it’s great. It’s been great.
Yeah, thank you. Absolutely. And from the inside out, right? It has to start within you, and you have to have those light switches flick and be like, “Oh, right. I’m doing something really cool.” For everyone listening, you don’t have to have had million-dollar changes.
No.
Although so many people have. If you’re listening, it’s very likely that you might have, and you don’t know it, right?
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
But you don’t have to have had those huge changes. It’s just about how you communicate the value in one way or another, and it’s always there. It’s just that if you’re not advancing to that next level, it’s because there is a reason in the way that you’re communicating it, just like Jamie just said. I wanted to talk to you about your full journey and how it happened pretty fast for you. But you also had an offer that you… I think you turned it down or it was just too low, right?
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Yeah.
Yes. Uh-huh (affirmative). Yes. They have-
Page 4 of 14
The mentality of once you get an offer, it’s like, “Okay, but this is just not… ” It’s knowing that it’s not what you want, knowing that you can do better, knowing where you’re at and having the courage to turn that down or walk away from it. Can you talk about that?
Yeah, so I actually interviewed with Neighborly, which is a company that is a franchise conglomerate. We own many franchise companies that have to do with the home, so Mr. Handyman, Mr. Electric. HouseMaster is the vertical I currently work on. I interviewed in may for a brand manager role. And of course the salary was lower than I wanted, but this was before I started talking to you, Natalie. Actually, this kind of prompted the reaching out to you because I’d been following you on LinkedIn for months, and I loved your content, so I know of you at this point. But I interview in May, and I don’t bring my whole self. I got really nervous, and I took half of a Xanax. I didn’t take my whole self to the interview, which is something we discussed as well. Because I was so nervous, it was a big deal, and I just really thought I would do better. I don’t think I did, but I did well enough.
I didn’t get the role in May. I didn’t get chosen for that role. I reached out to you in June, we worked through many things, and to my surprise, they called me back in July and said, “Hey, we have a role that would fit you better, and it’s more senior. It’s a new brand.” They needed someone that could handle sensitive subjects with existing franchise owners and just really handling things with the kid gloves that my experience would lend to that too. And so, they offered me a role. I didn’t even hardly interview at that point. They’d already interviewed me, they liked me. I mean, it was a three-day turnaround. I was offered a job. We had maybe one day of salary negotiation. And with your help, I got the salary I wanted. You never know where the closed door is going to either open up or lend you to the window that you should crawl through.
Such a good story. So many things I want to touch on there. First, thank you for mentioning Xanax. You’re not alone, I have a lot of clients that talk about that. They’re like, “I need to take something to relax me before the interview.” And then as you mentioned, it’s like, “Well, it just makes me kind of different in the interview.” Right?
Yeah, it did. And I-
So it doesn’t allow you to be the awesome person that you are there.
Yes, no, I quit taking… Not that I’ve had too many interviews since then, but I’ve had major events that I would have been very nervous about, but I have decided not to do that because it really doesn’t lend myself… I can’t be as funny, especially when I present, and I don’t tell good stories. I’m just not me. Like you said, it’s just not me.
Yeah, totally. And you’re the one that makes the impression, you’re the one that makes the money, not the Xanax.
Right. Right. We need all the money we can get at this point.
Totally.
[crosstalk 00:13:29], we need some money here.
Yeah. Yes, yes, and I wanted to get into that. I love talking openly about the salaries because I think you talking about your journey with aligning with the right salary, asking for that money is huge in helping other people to do that too. So would you share with us what you now and what you were making before?
Yes. Well, I was in my own business, so I was probably bringing home 100,000 in my own business, but if you have a business, that’s not all my money, right? I have expenses. So I was probably making in my own business 70, maybe, because I work from home, et cetera, all the apps I buy, et cetera
Which is pretty great. I mean, that’s pretty awesome.
Page 5 of 14
Yeah, I mean, it was great. During COVID, it helped pay the bills, and I could still have my own company, but it really wasn’t really where I wanted to be. The first job in May certainly wasn’t in my price range of what I wanted. The max was 95, and I really pushed for that. I don’t know that they particularly had the budget for it, although I did ask for the range, and they did tell me it went to 95. But it started at 75, and I said, “Wow, that’s kind of low for the experience they were asking for.” Right? So I think that that could have been one of the factors because I did comment about low it was. I’m really going to have to prove that the 95 is where I need to be. Because I’m really wanting 120. So my goal in my head is 120. So now you can understand why I thought that was-
Yeah, 95 is pretty low, yeah.
Yeah., very much.
And that’s the thing, what a lot of people would do in that situation is they would say, “Well, I’ve got this 95K on the table. I can make this work.” It depends on each person’s situation, but a lot of the times, it’s you know. If you know you’re worth more, your skills are worth more, your experience is worth more, then the only reason you would take that 95 or entertain that is because you don’t believe that that’s available for you later on.
Right.
And so, I think we worked on that as well, and so tell us where you’re at now.
They came back to me in July, which I knew they wanted me, right?
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
So that was the first hook that I had. They came back to me, so it was going to cost me. We worked on that. I talked with you about it, and we worked on that. And so, I think I asked for 120 like I had wanted. I wanted 120 because they called me back, I knew that I had them in a good place for me. So I asked for two more vacations days. I asked to work remotely because that’s a deal-breaker for me at this time in my life. I’ve got a high school daughter, and my son’s in college. I want to be able to get up and leave when I need to but work. I have a very good work ethic of working remotely, so I really wanted that. They came back and met me at 110 and gave me more vacation days and working remotely. So I said okay,
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Fantastic, yeah. Were you afraid to put all that out there and say, “This is what I want.”?
Yes. Yes. There was fear and no Xanax, there was fear. But the thing that helped me was really our conversation again about talking about the Mary Kay project and that I know confidently enough that any company that gives me a project, I know I can turn that into a money-making machine. I have experienced with that. I can spout out all kinds of KPIs and things of that nature. So what we worked out was if this company makes X millions of dollars, what is 120 to these people?
Totally, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you’d more than pay for yourself, right?
More than pay for myself, and anything that I touch, I know I will… You give me a whole marketing campaign, there will be a return on investment that I know I can bring to fruition because of my experience. When I say it like that, when I have that confidence in my voice, they listen to me. It was like, “Okay, yeah, well, let me see what I can do.” And they had to get money from somewhere else to pay-
Yeah, they had to go and ask and be like, “We need-
Yeah. They did not have the money, and they’ve robbed Peter to pay Paul internally to pay for me. And it was to be a brand manager, and they named me a brand director.
Page 6 of 14
Nice.
So that was one thing I wanted but I didn’t ask for, but they gave it to me.
Nice. That’s what confidence does.
Yeah. So to be able to talk that way like I am right this minute, talking about it and talking to them and saying… They came back to me with 100 and I said, “My original ask was 120.” Now, I realized that they wanted me, okay? So this is a unique position, you don’t always get this opportunity. But when they came back to me and wanted me, I go, “Yeah, I’m taking full advantage. Totally. I’m going all in, asking for everything I want.” Right?
Yeah, absolutely.
The HR person said, “Yeah, I know. I know it didn’t even come close to what you… ” And I said, “Okay. I’ll go to 115. Go see what they say, but I need two more vacation days, and that kind of thing.” Oh, and I couldn’t start until a certain day because I had a vacation planned, it was July. My kids are home. We had already planned a vacation thing. So they came back with 110, and again, it’s not where I wanted to be, but it’s-
It’s a great negotiation from where you were, right?
Yes.
How much in the end did you end up getting them up by.
Oh, so what? So if the original was 95, yes, significant amount from the 95 May, right? Which I probably wasn’t going to get 95 from the May offer, right? That’s the high end. They probably weren’t going to offer me that.
Yeah. So it’s a significant increase. I mean, at the end of the day, you did get the most you could have gotten for that position, right? What I wanted everyone to listen to is listen to the confidence in Jamie’s voice. Because that is where those results come from, is that confidence. And also, if they hadn’t come up, if they’d stayed at the 95 like, “This is where it is.” You can tell in your voice like, “I know this is what I’m worth. I know I have this experience. I know that the things that I work on will produce results.” And that is how you end up getting at what you ended up getting, right, whether it was there or whether it was somewhere else, yeah.
Because I was in those conversations even though they were short in that second go-around. I was pretty much in. I just said, just like I’m saying now, “I can guarantee you, any project I work on, your return on investment will exceed your goals typically, no matter what I work on. I have done things that have gone viral. I have worked on many different channels within marketing, and I bring that expertise. I also know how to talk to franchise owners. I know how to talk to C-suite. These things I bring.” When we monetize that, Natalie, you and I talked about that, and that hit like a switch in my head. Just like you said, it’s like, “Well, no wonder. Yes, this is a no-brainer. I should be making-
Totally,.
… this money. No, I’m not going to stop until I get that.” Right?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, what a shift, right? So many people out there doing great things, having these great results, and still accepting lower offers because they don’t believe that they can do it. It’s just this confidence shift right here that we’re just listening to you demonstrate for us. So thank you.
[inaudible 00:21:19].
I also wanted to talk about fit and cultural fit and the role you’re in now and how it aligns to what you wanted versus places that you worked previously, and how it feels differently and how you knew this was going to be a good place for you to be.
Page 7 of 14
Yeah. I definitely think from an experience level, they have brought me on and really let me be me in this role. My VP has six brands that report to her, so she is counting on me to pick up the reins and run and pretty much autonomy. But she’s been great to help me out when I find myself in a political quagmire because this is a new company, this is a new part of Neighborly, and just all the integrations. If anyone’s been in that situation, you know you’ve got the old people who don’t want to see change, and then you got the new people who want to see change. So it’s just managing all those things, but 95% of the time, they are counting on me to be me, and I love that. Because there are many companies you get hired and what got you there isn’t what they want you to do there, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
They hired you for all those things, but then they don’t let you do those things, right?
Exactly, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. So important. So important, yeah, to have the autonomy and for them to appreciate what you bring to the table and for you to be able to be creative and do things your way and just get the results. That’s what you’re there for.
Right. Sure.
So good. If we could look back at what advice you’d give yourself in the past, if you were to look back at you where you were before, what advice would you give yourself?
Oh yeah, to keep going. It’s trite, right, people say don’t give up, right, don’t give up. Even owning my own business, it was every day very difficult to make myself learn how to write a blog, make myself learn how to do video, make myself learn the social media platforms. And again, I had a marketing company, in order to get clients, I need to know those things, so I would do them for myself, to market myself. All of that has come into play in this role. I am now teaching or helping franchise owners manage their own businesses much like I used to manage my own business, right?
Perfect. Yeah.
All the pain and suffering of having to learn and feeling very old in the technology world because I had to learn how to do podcasts, right? My next step was a podcast. I did one, and then I got this job and not been able to do another one. I love Natalie’s podcast, I listen to hers too, so love those. It’s a lot of work and a lot of technology to make it work out, as you know, Natalie. So all those things that were painful in the learning process have paid off. Don’t give up.
Absolutely, yeah.
Every day you think it’s not working, you’re not doing something, but you are. You’re one step closer than you were. A lot of times you can’t see it, you won’t see it coming. You won’t see the end or you won’t see the benefit. But over time, it builds up.
Totally, yeah. Yeah, I love that, and I’ll reiterate it. It’s like if you believe every time you send something through, every time you send in an application or a resume, or you have a conversation with somebody, if you believe that’s always moving you forward, that’s a choice you have to believe versus, “Oh, that didn’t work out,” and then that makes you discourage versus, “It’s working. It’s always working as long as you keep in it.” And that’s one of my favorite quotes, is like, “You cannot fail if you don’t give up.”
Yeah. No, I love that.
And you’re a perfect example of that, yeah. And you did it fairly fast, though. We started working together, and then you got this offer two months in, was it?
Yes, two months. Yeah. But I had talked to them before and then it was just more of about-
More of a negotiating and getting it to the level you wanted it at.
Page 8 of 14
Yes. And that’s where I also knew I needed help because I wasn’t getting the job offers. In fact, I was getting interviews in medium level, not anything high level, and I was tired of being there. Clearly I’m not showing my skillset somehow, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
[inaudible 00:25:31].
It’s like there’s a disconnect, right, like the stuff you could do versus the stuff you’re getting conversations to do?
Right.
Yeah, totally makes sense. And that experience from your own business is great. Like all of that that you just said, you’re able to incorporate all of it, bring all of it, and bring that confidence too. That’s the secret recipe that you needed. So how would you describe coaching to someone who’s never experienced coaching before?
Coaching is a very personal thing. I actually am a certified career coach. I’ve coached students at higher education institutions around Dallas. That’s where I am, in Dallas, Texas. I’ve coached students at UTD, University of Texas at Dallas and Southern Methodist University. Coaching is a very personal thing. As people have come to me for coaching, you can tell them all kinds of things, but if they aren’t willing to do it, if they aren’t willing to cross that bridge from what I know to do and what I need doing it… There’s this bridge, you have to be willing to cross. I followed you, Natalie, for months on LinkedIn. Sounds like I was a stalker. I followed you on LinkedIn. And I loved your podcast. I was listening to your podcast when I go for a walk, or whatever, because I knew I needed something, but I wasn’t sure what it was.
What I also noticed about coaching, mostly because I am a coach and I see this in other people when I just very much like you’ve done for me, just really show me from a mirror, like a mirror view of what I need to be doing, and it’s like, “Oh, well that was very obvious.” But you stated the obvious, but I didn’t see it until you said it. I needed you to show it to me. I needed you to hold up this mirror to me and say, “Look, this is what I see.” Because for some reason I couldn’t see it. I couldn’t see how to be confident [crosstalk 00:27:27].
It’s the human condition, it’s normal, right? We all have that. That’s why executives and successful people and Olympic athletes and everyone who’s really wanting to be at the top of their game, they all have a coach, right? It’s for a reason?
Yeah.
Yeah. And then people can look at it from two ways. They can be like, “Oh, well, I really should be seeing it myself.” or “How could I not?” People talk about, “I shouldn’t need to get help,” but it’s not about that. It’s about just being open to what is, right. It’s like we all have blind spots.
Always. Always. I think it’s a level… and I don’t want to say a level of maturity, maybe it is. It’s a level of willingness maybe, more correctly to say. More of a willingness to see what I’m doing wrong and how do I fix that? And I’m open to that. I’m not only open to that, but I’m willing to do whatever you say.
You’re like, “I want that.” And that’s what-
I want it.
Yeah. And that’s what makes the best clients really.
Because you could tell someone they need to see a coach, and you could pay for them to go… If my husband needed help, I should tell him to come see Natalie. Well, it’s one of those things that if my husband or my son or my friend doesn’t personally believe that it’s something they need to do, there’s nothing that you can do, Natalie, to help them.
Page 9 of 14
Totally, yeah.
There’s nothing I can do to help students if they aren’t willing to cross that bridge from what I am seeing, the reality, I’m holding up the mirror and I’m stating the obvious, and you may not see it, but to go there and do it. We would have calls and you would tell me, “Okay.” Natalie would say to me, “Well, see it this way, this way. Think about this and this and this.” I literally wrote those things down, and I would do them that week. You knew I would do those because I would come back and say, “I did that. I did that thing. And it was amazing.” Yep, that’s the thing about coaching, you have to be open to it, you have to be willing to go that extra mile of doing it. It’s very personal, very personal, I think.
Yeah. Yeah. Very well said. Thank you. Yeah, very well said, and it’s so true. Yeah, you can’t receive the coaching if you’re not ready, if you’re not willing, if you’re not open. I think everybody gets to the point where if they’re not seeing the results on their own, they’re going to realize eventually that, “Hey, maybe I could use some help here.” How would you describe me as a coach if you had to describe to somebody else what my style is, how we worked together?
Oh, well, I love the fact that you’re very direct and open. And not that you’re not nice, you’re very nice. You’re not mean or any of those things. Being direct does not mean you’re negative. It just means, well, did you think about this? Right?
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Because I don’t need people to not tell me. I need for you to tell me because I’m clearly interviewing with people who are not telling me, right?
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Exactly. Yes. They’re never going to tell you the truth.
I got tons of people not telling me what’s what, and I need someone, like, tell me what’s what. I’m going to do those things that you said to do because I am totally open to that. That’s why I’ve asked you to help me.
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much-
I love that. But I’m-
… really well said.
I’m a very direct person, so I don’t have… But again, you’re always very nice. It’s always very constructive, and it’s not negative, and it’s not, “Well, you should have known that.” No. This is why I’m asking you I shouldn’t have known that, right?
Yeah.
So it’s never like that. It’s always positive reinforcement stating the obvious possibly that I don’t see. That’s the first thing I said to you, “I just don’t see it. I don’t see what I’m doing wrong.”
I think the big thing to take away from this is you have to be willing to know that there’s stuff that you’re not seeing, right? And just accept that-
Right.
… as an awareness first. Be like, “Okay, I am missing something, or I would have the results.” I know it sounds very simple, but sometimes the most simple things are the most profound.
Right. And just you stating those things, “Well, you made all this money, therefore you should ask for money,” I should just saw that, but I didn’t see that, right?
Yeah.
Page 10 of 14
And so, again, just filled with people enough not telling me I need… And that was one of the first things I said to you, like, “I need you to tell me what it is that I’m missing, because clearly there is something not working out here.”
Yeah. And there was just a few small shifts and then you easily are able to advance to your result, the ideal situation. And so, what do you think were the main shifts? If you can pinpoint the main shifts that got you from where you were when we met to where you are now, what would those things be?
I would say understanding my value, understanding what I bring to the table and not always answering, “Oh, yeah, I can do that. Oh, yeah, I can do that. Oh, yeah, I can do that.” Right?
Yeah.
Really being able to expand on that value because that’s what got me the money, right?
Yeah. Total. And they just met you, so they don’t know. They need you to elaborate on it. And there was so much to elaborate on, and this is what I want people to hear is if you’re listening right now and you’re thinking, “Oh, I don’t have that much.” or “I don’t really know,” that’s where Jamie was, not knowing, right?
Right. Right.
Yeah. It is just a matter of, like you said, filling in those blind spots on those gaps and just being able to be like, “Oh, okay.” And then you walk around with this new level of confidence, right?
Yeah. No. I mean, even if you’re new in your role, new in your job, there’s always a way, and of course I’m in marketing so bear with me, there’s always a way to spin it. There’s always a way to talk about how beneficial that project was. And once the company got out of it and when you can turn that around to where you show your value, I think that it’s so much easier to have that confidence in your voice.
So much, yeah. Yeah. Like you said, sometimes you do feel like you’re spinning it in a different way, right? It’s not an untruthful way, it’s just a different way that you who communicate it that actually lands better than what you were saying before, right?
Right.
And it comes from that internal confidence. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to ask you was, for people who don’t have as much experience as you do, you have a lot of experience and a lot of success, and so people who feel like they don’t have that, what would you advise to them? Because I know if you have all that, you want to utilize it, but if you don’t have all that, you can still get really outstanding results with the confidence, not just having those results to back it up. What would you say to people who don’t have as much as you do?
Oh yes, so I can remember those days, I can remember the days of thinking, “Oh, when I get there, when I get to be a heavy hitter that’s… I work agency side.” That’s what they called the media buyers that bought Dallas and got to hobnob with all the big stations and all that. “So when I get to be a heavy hitter, I’m going to do this and this and this.” Right?
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
It’s really the journey that gets you there. The journey is important not getting to that… You think that you get that title and you think, “Oh, I’ve made it, I’m here.” But really that path along the way of what you add to your career and what you do outside of your career, the networking, being a part of LinkedIn, I highly recommend that, being connecting with people because I’ve not only met Natalie and asked her to be my coach, but I have met people…
The only reason why I even had the opportunity for this role is because of a friend I met on LinkedIn, literally. I only know her through LinkedIn, and she happens to be one of those pay-it-forward people.
Page 11 of 14
She helped me get introduced. So being on LinkedIn is really, really important in your a career. Don’t get so settled in your job that you never look outside of it. Always look to the future, better yourself with skills because you won’t be in the job you’re in as long as you think.
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s really good thing to bring up too, because a lot of people… I do a lot of work with people around networking and the importance of it and knowing how that actually does grow your career and how it can be fun. And so, if you’re listening, this is another kind of plug for get out there and talk to people because there’s no downside in it at all, right?
Right.
And like you said, she happened to be one of those pay-it-forward people. Every single one of my clients has met a pay-it-forward person through their networking experience. And so, one of those beliefs that you need to cultivate if you’re listening is you do need to believe that there are pay-it-forward people out there, because there’s a ton of them.
Oh yeah, no, right? I’ve known her a long time, two years now, but I only met her on LinkedIn. She lives in Oklahoma. I never see her in person, but we’re always on LinkedIn together and liking each other’s stuff and talking about it. We’re kindred spirits in that sense that we try to help people out.
Yeah, even just liking each other’s stuff, even just starting little conversations like that, it makes a huge difference. And so, I’d love for you to share because I think you have a really good grasp on this, is what are your thoughts generally about… If you had no network right now and you were going to start building a network, what would your thoughts be to get that? It’d be easier for you because you’ve done it already, but for somebody who’s never done it, what would you suggest for building a network to start with?
I can remember starting my LinkedIn network, and it’s probably been, let’s see, 27 years ago. I recognized that I was getting left behind in social media. And because I did work at Mary Kay at the time and I was in brand management, but I didn’t deal a lot on social media, and I thought, “This is a gap for me, and I really need to get a hold of it.” What I did was I picked LinkedIn because I wanted something good for my career, and I really believe that that platform offers the best for your career. If you don’t have time for any other a platform, do it for your career. I really believe that. All I would do is every day ask five people to connect with me.
Nice.
Because out of those five, I’d get two or three. So every day, I would just go on… has the options of you may know these people. I would just connect with them, and I would build this platform. You have to get over the fact that you aren’t going to know everybody in your network. That was one crucial thing I had to get over. Because I thought, this is LinkedIn, I only had people I knew on there, right?
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.
And so, it’s really getting over that phobia of I’m going to be connected to people I don’t even know. Yes. Yes, you need to. Every time I went to an event, connecting with whoever spoke, even if they are the CMO of Anheuser-Busch. And he said yes. I’m connected to the CMO of Anheuser-Busch, I’m connected to the CMO of Peloton, and I’m connected to Gary V, who I love to listen to his marketing aspects. I’ve seen him speak a couple of times. Anytime I went to a conference, I always connected with the speaker. I always made a point of going up and introducing myself as well. I just put in little rules for myself like, “Today I’m going to connect with five people.” I knew I would only get two or three. That’s fine. The more you connect, the more people will want to connect with you. You can start out just liking posts on LinkedIn and commenting, “Hey, I like that.” Real simple. But start today because in six months, you’ll wish you had. It’s super easy to do today. People spend two and a half hours on social media a day, let LinkedIn be one of them, and let it be better for your career.
Page 12 of 14
Totally. Instead of scrolling, because a lot of people spend a lot of time scrolling, instead of scrolling, start liking stuff on LinkedIn. Great. You make it sound really easy, so thanks. I’m glad I asked you about it. The way that you talk about it sounds really fun and easy. It’s like, “Oh, it’s like a game, we just connect with five people a day-
Yeah, it’s just a game.
And if two people respond, yeah.
Yeah. I mean-
Yeah, love it.
Yeah, I think of it that way. And if they don’t want to be connected, well, fine, but you will find many, many people who do.
Yeah. And that is what the platform is for. It’s just like are afraid to use it for what it’s for because of their own insecurities like, “Oh, what if they don’t respond? What if they don’t want to connect with me?” It’s like, “Who cares? That’s what it’s for.”
Yeah. What I find is when you really need help… So you’re not always asking for a job, right? You’re not always asking-
Correct.
… for you. Put things out there that really help the community, and you will be known as that. But you could sprinkle in the once in a while, but you really need to keep it warm for those times that you need some help. Because you never know when those times will come.
Absolutely, yeah. Really well said, thank you for that. The last thing I wanted to ask you about was what’s different for you now? In your new role, what are you taking forward and how are you experiencing life differently with your increase in salary that you make now? How is it feeling for you now versus before?
Oh my gosh, well, it’s great because I’m taking all the knowledge that I built up for my business and I’m helping other business owners, and that’s just a passion of mine and especially doing a podcast cast and helping women see themselves differently because I think that we definitely come from behind the eight ball at times, especially with salary. So it’s one of my passions, is to help women negotiate. Number one thing, always ask. Just ask. Don’t not ask because you’ve just left five grand, you’ve just left a year’s worth of salary on the table. What’s five grand? Five grand is a lot to you personally, but to a company, it’s not. And so to always ask is one of my passions to get women to do.
But I brought forward to help these business owners understand social media and digital marketing because they’re not as savvy as I feel like they should be in their business. I understand they’re struggles, because it’s difficult to own your own business, work your business, and then market your business. I mean, you talk about a full plate, that’s a lot to do. And so I hope that I’m helping them with all that I know.
And as far as monetarily, so my son goes to Texas A&M. He’s a freshman. We’ve been able to pay his college tuition this semester. We don’t know that we will get to keep it up, but I’m very happy to help him. He’s studying visualization, and he is having a great time going to school even though it’s very hard, which is what I get from him all the time, “It’s so hard, mom.” Yes, it’s hard. If it was easy, everybody would do it, right? So we’ve been able to do that, take some vacations, improve our house. So it’s just been all around so much better. I don’t resent my job because I took less, and that’s an internal thing.
I don’t ever want to do that again. I’ve done it to where I beat myself up for accepting lesser than what I’m worth in my mind. I don’t want that to happen again. I feel that now that I have this formula that you’ve given me, Natalie, of thinking the value of what my project does and the value that I bring and
Page 13 of 14
the return for the company versus what I cost, like this is this great little formula. No, this equals confidence.
Yes.
And so, I’m really happy to be able to take that with me and share that because that is a personal triumph for myself-
Yes. So good.
… to ask for the money.
And every day that you’re there, you’re contributing even more and more and more, and we’ve talked about where you go next from there and how it just keeps increasing from there and how you just become more valuable. We’ve talked about all the things that you’ve done even just being there… How long have you been there for now?
Yeah, since July. So what is that? 5 months?
August, September, October. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, not even having been there very long but already made a huge impact, made a huge impression. They’ve given you presentations, lots of responsibility. And you’re like, “Yeah, of course, that’s what they’re paying me for, that’s what I do.”
Well, when they ask me to do these crazy wild things, I’m often up for them, speak in front of an audience that I don’t know, very Ted Talk style, so I enjoy that. That’s not anything I don’t enjoy because I love networking, I love speaking. Because I have been a teacher, et cetera, I love those things. But it’s not that I feel resentful, right?
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
I work a lot. I convert talks into videos. I do that on my own time because they pay me. They have paid me the salary, I don’t resent it, I don’t resent anything that they ask me. I work a lot. I’m a recovering workaholic actually. But I don’t resent it because I have the money and that to me is everything. But that’s me.
And the flexibility, the working from home. You get to have the life that you want with the flexibility, and you get to do it in your own time. And those are all things that people can get. This is possible for you, guys, listening, right?
Yes.
Thinking about-
Yes, no, don’t give up, right? Don’t stop. Ask for all of it.
Yeah, totally. Yeah, and you’ll get it. Ask for what you want, and you might not get it the first time or the second time, but you will get it. You just have to stay in that belief, right? Yeah.
Yes, this isn’t an overnight thing. This is a whole career coming to get it.
Yeah. Yeah. And you just build on that, and you get to benefit from that now for the rest of your years working. So it just only gets better from here. This is just the beginning, it’s one of my favorite thoughts.
Yes.
Awesome. The last thing I wanted to ask you about was how do you feel about your new role?
Yeah, I love it. I thought I would miss my own business. I do a little bit, but this is a dream job to me, this is what I wanted. If I could have made a list, this crazy list of what I’m going to ask for, my Christmas list, this job is my Christmas list. Pie in the sky, this is it. I don’t feel that bad about it. I still have my business on the side. If someone were to ask me, I would help them. But no, I love it. I love it because I get to help people do their marketing, and that’s what I love to do.
Page 14 of 14
Amazing. I mean, there’s no right or wrong way, right? If you wanted to make your business a success and go all in with that, you made that successful. You chose to have a job so you could have this flexibility and you didn’t have to worry about a lot of things, and that’s what you’ve done, right? So there’s no right or wrong. It’s just a choice. I would love to give you the opportunity to talk about your business and to let people know where they can find you and what you do. I mean, I know that with the confidence that you have and with everything that you said you can do, there are still people coming to you. I think we talked about that too, right?
Yes. Yes. I do still have some clients that are interested in my work and helping them. And so, I have a company, it’s called GVC Marketing, and at gvcmarketing.com, you can find my website, you can find what we offer. But I offer the full gamut of marketing, so mostly brand development and some ancillaries are we do video. I love video. I turn into a 12-year-old. I love editing video and making video. I can’t have TikTok because my daughter would be very upset with me. She would be very embarrassed, but I could be on TikTok, I’m just saying. I love video. But I’m not on TikTok. But you can find me on LinkedIn under my name, Jamie Kernohan, and love to hear what you think about post or what you’re doing in your career. I’m mostly on LinkedIn, is my favorite.
Awesome. Well, we’ll add those to the show notes so people can find you.
Okay.
Yeah. Is there anything else that you’d like to add? It’s been amazing.
No. You need to hire Natalie, she’s the best. She’s the best. She really came through for me in a time when I was really, really lacking confidence. The confidence you hear in me is because she’s a great coach and coached it out of me. So y’all need to get on the ball and give her a call, for sure.
And you’ll all need to get on board just like Jamie did. Get on board with the coaching quickly. Yeah, it doesn’t have to be hard. It doesn’t have to be hard. It can get to the point where you’re just having breakthrough after breakthrough and you get it and you’re just where you are now. So thank you so much. Thank you for sharing all your knowledge and wisdom with everybody. It’s going to be super valuable for them and appreciate you coming on.
Yeah. Anytime. I’m so glad to be here, so thanks so much for having me.
Hey, there. So if you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, I want to invite you to something very special. As you know, you know I’ve been coaching one on one for years and you’ve heard me talk about all my clients and you’ve heard them come on the podcast. And from these experiences and from all these hours that I’ve done coaching, I’ve created the ultimate program where I take you through the steps that I walked everyone through to achieve the unreasonable results that they’ve achieved. I don’t just mean getting a job, just getting any job, or making things a little better here or there. I mean life-changing results, doubling salaries, switching industries while doubling salary, getting six bigger positions with no official paid experience, and just creating a life that they didn’t imagine was possible. And this isn’t for special people or unicorns, this is for everybody as long as they’re willing to be open and apply the work.
We work in a high-touch container where you’re supported with lifetime access. You get the proven process, the highest quality support in the industry, and there’s literally no failing, unless you quit, which I won’t let you do. So there’s literally no risk in joining me inside The Six Figure Career Curriculum Mastermind. So if you want to get started, all you have to do is go to www.nataliefisher.ca/getstarted and sign up for that workshop, and I will see you in there.